Mid-Table Finish? (And Grandstand Discussion)

[LostPilgrim]

With 99% of the contributions from about two dozen people, hardly a "fissure" in the green army :funny:

And, interestingly, only two of those making a scene about a short pre-season preview on a random website.

 

[Ho Ho Green Benny]

Having just read the article myself i don't actually see why it has caused the fuss and negative response from some it has.

It is well balanced piece and pretty much tells it how it is and i am pretty much in agreement with what is said. Like the author, i to am looking forward to the start of the season for footballing reasons in that we for the first time in years have a decent manager, a reasonable (not brilliant) squad and we should at least not have to worry about relegation and hopefully start to build a team to challenge for promotion.

However i am also in agreement with the author in that i have not been overly happy with the off field running's and dealings of our club in the past year or so and how it has turned into more of a local boys club for the selected few than an actual football club and i am certainly not happy with the proposed development, and i can quite see the point he makes in how the difference in opinion between the fan base could detract from enjoying the football as much as we should be. Whatever happens with the development, it will divide the fan base, because as in life you can not please everyone and some will be pleased it is getting built while others won't if the plans go ahead for the small grandstand which stifles future development and all the other non related argyle developments.

 

[Don't Panic]

Having just read the article myself i don't actually see why it has caused the fuss and negative response from some it has.

It is well balanced piece and pretty much tells it how it is and i am pretty much in agreement with what is said. Like the author, i to am looking forward to the start of the season for footballing reasons in that we for the first time in years have a decent manager, a reasonable (not brilliant) squad and we should at least not have to worry about relegation and hopefully start to build a team to challenge for promotion.

However i am also in agreement with the author in that i have not been overly happy with the off field running's and dealings of our club in the past year or so and how it has turned into more of a local boys club for the selected few than an actual football club and i am certainly not happy with the proposed development, and i can quite see the point he makes in how the difference in opinion between the fan base could detract from enjoying the football as much as we should be. Whatever happens with the development, it will divide the fan base, because as in life you can not please everyone and some will be pleased it is getting built while others won't if the plans go ahead for the small grandstand which stifles future development and all the other non related argyle developments.

It's like banging your head against against a wall. You're perfectly entitled to say that you agree with the article just as much as some of us have a right to disagree with what has been said, that is all that some of us have done, that though doesn't sit well with some & it seems that we all have to agree, I think it's better that we all form our own opinions & leave it at that, that's not a fuss just the way it should be.

 

[esmer]

If I recall the Pasoti polls gave the new stand a 70 - 80% disapproval rating and in another poll almost 50% would rather the stand wasn't built at all with it's proposed capacity.

I recall that too esmer

Spin?

52% rather they did,

That not a majority then?

:thumbs:

Yep, you've got that right Ian. 52% is indeed a majority.

 

[ejh]

If I recall the Pasoti polls gave the new stand a 70 - 80% disapproval rating and in another poll almost 50% would rather the stand wasn't built at all with it's proposed capacity.

I recall that too esmer

Spin?

52% rather they did,

That not a majority then?

:thumbs:

Yep, you've got that right Ian. 52% is indeed a majority.

So it has gone from X Isle saying that the Maylower isnt divisive, it's a great positive project that only a dozen loud mouths oppose, to celebrating a 52% 'majority' of a the largest supporter survey compiled.

If that doesn't spell out divisive, contentious and controversial, then I don't know what does. In fact only a 50:50 or 51:49 split could be any closer to splitting the fanbase.

 

[esmer]

If I recall the Pasoti polls gave the new stand a 70 - 80% disapproval rating and in another poll almost 50% would rather the stand wasn't built at all with it's proposed capacity.

When will reality set in, there's a greater majority of Argyle supporters who are not PASOTI members so whatever result of any poll on here is not representative of all Argyle supporters. So dress it up to whatever satisfies you but don't assume your speaking for a majority, because your not :sigh:

FFS when did I ever say I was speaking for the majority. I was simply stating the the fact that in a Pasoti poll there was a huge disapproval rating for the new stand, and in another poll near to 50% would rather not have the new stand with the proposed capacity at all. An inconvenient truth maybe?

 

[esmer]

If I recall the Pasoti polls gave the new stand a 70 - 80% disapproval rating and in another poll almost 50% would rather the stand wasn't built at all with it's proposed capacity.

When will reality set in, there's a greater majority of Argyle supporters who are not PASOTI members so whatever result of any poll on here is not representative of all Argyle supporters. So dress it up to whatever satisfies you but don't assume your speaking for a majority, because your not :sigh:

FFS when did I ever say I was speaking for the majority. I was simply stating the the fact that in a Pasoti poll there was a huge disapproval rating for the new stand, and in another poll near to 50% would rather not have the new stand with the proposed capacity at all. An inconvenient truth maybe?

Like I said, you dress it up how you want

You're confusing me, how am I dressing anything up? I'm simply stating simple facts.

 

[Don't Panic]

Graiser you're wasting your time mate, they've picked the poll that just about suits them best whilst ignoring any other poll that went against them as apparently they were loaded against them, they'll come along & say there wasn't such polls but we all saw them, save your time for much better things.

 

[LostPilgrim]

Graiser you're wasting your time mate, they've picked the poll that just about suits them best whilst ignoring any other poll that went against them as apparently they were loaded against them, they'll come along & say there wasn't such polls but we all saw them, save your time for much better things.

So on the one hand all PASOTI polls are pointless because not ever Argyle fan is on PASOTI. On the other there were PASOTI polls showing "support" thus proving...what. exactly??

If all polls on PASOTI are pointless then so were ones giving a pro tiny stand result. At least be consistent.

Given all the royal they (who are "they" btw??) have argued is that there was a split In the fanbase over the proposed stand, and there still is. The many 50 plus page threads are pretty solid evidence of disagreement.

Are those vocally in favour of the tiny stand so blinkered they don't acknowledge even the existence of an alternative view, or anyone taking said view? In which case why is this thread creeping up to 10 pages? Are you arguing with yourself? If so then I agree; you really do have better things to be doing with you time!!!

 

[ejh]

Graiser you're wasting your time mate, they've picked the poll that just about suits them best whilst ignoring any other poll that went against them as apparently they were loaded against them, they'll come along & say there wasn't such polls but we all saw them, save your time for much better things.

Do you realise that the other polls were actually critical rather than supporting of James Brent's design?

The majority in each instance said the capacity wasn't enough, or the WG plan was better, or whatever poll suited that particular fortnight's discussion.

Silly of you to bring those other polls up then isn't it - 52% v 48% was the first and only time the pro-lobby achieved a 'majority' on pasoti - and that was only when the other option was to reject £10m funding and do absolutely nothing at all with the stand (a very drastic alternative).

You may like to criticise Pasoti for not being representative, but it has been the largest consultation done on this project. At JB's own consultation sessions, the anti's were criticised for not attending, with those there describing only 15 fans turning up.

So shall we agree the simplicity of pasoti being the most widespread piece of supporter consultation done on this project so far?

If not I would like to read this statistical document which speaks for the views of over 200-300 supporters, taking into account the diversity of young and old, home fans and away fans, mayflower and zoo corner, Jake supporters and Luke fans. I am almost certain that neither PAFC, Akkeron, Plymouth City Council and even the Argyle Fans Trust has yet bothered to do this.

 

[Grantham Green]

I reckon if we are not looking toward a mid table finish we are prolly being a little negative all I want is to be bottom of the top half anything else is a bonus ( Maybe an achievable one but after the last 37 years as an Argyle fan i'm definitely a realist)! How this thread has become a slanging match on the proposed capacity however is more predictable ....... evens I reckon!!!

 

[Don't Panic]

Before being so arrogant with your replies both lost pilgrim & ejh (not unusual for the later) I think you'll find that it's your merry band of men that keep bringing up polls & how they seem to somehow say that all & sundry are against the plans, most polls on here are pretty useless when used as a complete indicator as to the support either pro or against, & no I don't recall all other polls (which there were many in various disguises) being against the plans so we can disagree on that. Some may not like other people's opinion on the stand, I have absolutely NO issues with others having a different opinion it's only when they tar all with the same brush or try to bend the truth to suit them.

Edited to add lost pilgrim when you say things like fans being so blinkered against an alternative view, or words to that effect, you need to be aware of some like ejh who seem to spend large amounts of his time on here on every stand related thread trying to convince us, & trying hard I'll give him that, that he is right regarding the plans, the double standards from many as to who can say what & who is right is laughable. You guys go ahead & be against the plans, you are entitled to do so, some of us are happy with what's proposed so how about leaving it at that.

 

[ejh]

Before being so arrogant with your replies both lost pilgrim & ejh (not unusual for the later) I think you'll find that it's your merry band of men that keep bringing up polls & how they seem to somehow say that all & sundry are against the plans, most polls on here are pretty useless when used as a complete indicator as to the support either pro or against, & no I don't recall all other polls (which there were many in various disguises) being against the plans so we can disagree on that. Some may not like other people's opinion on the stand, I have absolutely NO issues with others having a different opinion it's only when they tar all with the same brush or try to bend the truth to suit them.

Edited to add lost pilgrim when you say things like fans being so blinkered against an alternative view, or words to that effect, you need to be aware of some like ejh who seem to spend large amounts of his time on here on every stand related thread trying to convince us, & trying hard I'll give him that, that he is right regarding the plans, the double standards from many as to who can say what & who is right is laughable. You guys go ahead & be against the plans, you are entitled to do so, some of us are happy with what's proposed so how about leaving it at that.

You're just ranting for the sake of it now.

No-one brought up the polls until X Isle decided to deliver his verdict that there was no opposition or controversy regarding the Mayflower redevelopment except for a dozen loudmouths on here.

The fact is that the most flattering poll in favour of the development was 52% for and 48% against, in a straight yes or no 'do you want it built?' survey with hundreds of supporters responses. Other surveys were much more damning in terms of the lack of support for JB's plans (for example, the 92% who felt a 17,500 capacity was inadequate).

So there are two facts there - 1) Esmer only brought up the polls in response to total nonsense being spouted (and therefore, it wasn't 'moaning antis constantly bringing it up again', and 2) The most suitable poll wasn't even picked - there were plenty of others to suit the anti-agenda, but Esmer picked the straight forward one, created by the Pasoti moderators, several of which are strongly in favour of the development (so forget any ideas about deliberately flawed polls to fit agendas).

You really need to start getting your facts straight, because if you look in this thread, those branded as 'usual suspects' (such as myself, esmer, LostPilgrim) are only ever posting in response to strawmen arguments, inaccurate versions of events and outright lies. If you want us to give it a rest, stop making up nonsense and start getting the facts right. :thumbup: :silent:

 

[esmer]

Before being so arrogant with your replies both lost pilgrim & ejh (not unusual for the later) I think you'll find that it's your merry band of men that keep bringing up polls & how they seem to somehow say that all & sundry are against the plans, most polls on here are pretty useless when used as a complete indicator as to the support either pro or against, & no I don't recall all other polls (which there were many in various disguises) being against the plans so we can disagree on that. Some may not like other people's opinion on the stand, I have absolutely NO issues with others having a different opinion it's only when they tar all with the same brush or try to bend the truth to suit them.

Edited to add lost pilgrim when you say things like fans being so blinkered against an alternative view, or words to that effect, you need to be aware of some like ejh who seem to spend large amounts of his time on here on every stand related thread trying to convince us, & trying hard I'll give him that, that he is right regarding the plans, the double standards from many as to who can say what & who is right is laughable. You guys go ahead & be against the plans, you are entitled to do so, some of us are happy with what's proposed so how about leaving it at that.

As you say everyone is entitled to their views and we all should respect that but I genuinely don't get why any fan should be so passionately supportive of the plans. Surely for every fan a free 20,000 capacity ground is better than a free 17,000 capacity one. I can understand acceptance. If you hold the view that a 17,000 capacity ground is all we are going to get from Mr Brent and we are a small club and are unlikely to need anything larger then fine, but why the wholehearted support of it, I honestly don't get it.

 

[xmastree]

Before being so arrogant with your replies both lost pilgrim & ejh (not unusual for the later) I think you'll find that it's your merry band of men that keep bringing up polls & how they seem to somehow say that all & sundry are against the plans, most polls on here are pretty useless when used as a complete indicator as to the support either pro or against, & no I don't recall all other polls (which there were many in various disguises) being against the plans so we can disagree on that. Some may not like other people's opinion on the stand, I have absolutely NO issues with others having a different opinion it's only when they tar all with the same brush or try to bend the truth to suit them.

Edited to add lost pilgrim when you say things like fans being so blinkered against an alternative view, or words to that effect, you need to be aware of some like ejh who seem to spend large amounts of his time on here on every stand related thread trying to convince us, & trying hard I'll give him that, that he is right regarding the plans, the double standards from many as to who can say what & who is right is laughable. You guys go ahead & be against the plans, you are entitled to do so, some of us are happy with what's proposed so how about leaving it at that.

Amazed that people like Dont Panic are still banging on as if the key to the development was a reality tv style poll.

The question is will the development go ahead? That is down to the Planners. Relevence of objections (and to a lesser extent supportive submissions) are what will influence the decision - it's quality (relevence) not quantity that matters. All this rubbish about Pasoti polls is mindblowing nonsense. As for the "silent majority", which both sides have claimed, anyone who is silent will not have any influence.