-
This site is sponsored by Lang & Potter.
Hillsborough verdicts.
- Thread starter Green Rhino
- Start date
I must say, I feel I should stick up for X-Isle here.
As with most things, grey areas are completely ignored. Now we know that the 'police=0% blame, fans=100% blame' angle that was peddled in the aftermath, was completely wrong.
Equally, I find it very hard to think that it was actually 'police = 100% blame, fans = 0%' given what we know about fan culture in that era, as Smiffy says.
Clearly though, the police share much, much more of the blame than fans and they should rightly pay the penalties. I just get uncomfortable when someone is hung out to dry for expressing an opinion that isn't either black or white, as X-Isle has done.
Truly baffling and insulting decision from The Times and Sun not to have it on their front pages, though. They'd have known the bad press they'd get.
As with most things, grey areas are completely ignored. Now we know that the 'police=0% blame, fans=100% blame' angle that was peddled in the aftermath, was completely wrong.
Equally, I find it very hard to think that it was actually 'police = 100% blame, fans = 0%' given what we know about fan culture in that era, as Smiffy says.
Clearly though, the police share much, much more of the blame than fans and they should rightly pay the penalties. I just get uncomfortable when someone is hung out to dry for expressing an opinion that isn't either black or white, as X-Isle has done.
Truly baffling and insulting decision from The Times and Sun not to have it on their front pages, though. They'd have known the bad press they'd get.
If I may ask one small question and it's purely a matter of semantics.
What Liverpool fans have been exonerated of any blame? As I see it this could mean the 96 victims have been cleared of any wrongdoing in their own demise or as X-isle is asking, has this inquiry said that not one Liverpool fan did anything to contribute to the disaster.
As I see it, this inquest was held and pushed for by families and friends of the 96 so would they even want any question marks held over the LFC fans that day. As X-isle has again asked, did any of those that rushed through the gate albeit under police instruction hold their hand up and say we were wrong (for anything).
What Liverpool fans have been exonerated of any blame? As I see it this could mean the 96 victims have been cleared of any wrongdoing in their own demise or as X-isle is asking, has this inquiry said that not one Liverpool fan did anything to contribute to the disaster.
As I see it, this inquest was held and pushed for by families and friends of the 96 so would they even want any question marks held over the LFC fans that day. As X-isle has again asked, did any of those that rushed through the gate albeit under police instruction hold their hand up and say we were wrong (for anything).
Went to the Sheffield Wednesday v Liverpool game a few months before the disaster and stood in the Leepings Lane end. nowhere near the same number of fans there but shortly before the kick off the police all linked arms at the back of the crowd and physically forced them forward.
Biggs":1h3kuzoa said:
Thank you Biggs, if just one person 'gets' my point and takes it in it's intended context then it makes up for all the 'black and whiters' who refuse to see it...and yet apparently I'm deluded :lol:
Even if it's less that 1% fans v 99.9% police...then that's a contribution, and THAT was the wording of question 7.
Clearly the jury said 'no' to it because all the evidence they heard from fans was from salt of the earth football folk and their families. And they WERE salt of the earth football folk/families, just as I or my family would've been had I been crushed a little more at Wembley against Holland the following spring or you guys were that got crushed at Highbury and Ashton Gate as we've heard. It was endemic and could have happened anywhere, lots of people used to try anything to gain free entry.
The guys who they needed to hear from to answer 'yes' to question 7 didn't have to make (false) statements, they didn't have warrant numbers or traceable positions at SWFC, they just skulked out in embarrassed silence and have been silent ever since, untraceable.
Twisting this into X-Isle believes the police version is just utter bollox. Almost as much bollox as anyone believing that what went on ALL THE TIME at football back then simply didn't happen that one day. Inconceivable.
Enough already....again :roll:
I didn't word it very well. I meant that all football clubs including Liverpool had a hard core of violent hooligans amongst their fan base at the time. I don't beleive that because a section of Liverpool fans went on a murdeous rampage at the Heysel they caused the Hillsborough tragedy. I merely doubt given the violence and aggression that surrounded football then that all the Liverpool fans present at Hillsborough were impeccably behaved inocents. The jury beleived it but I remain sceptical.Frank_Butcher":b9rl3b4v said:
Daz":nfdtmd6x said:
I have no idea as to how many Liverpool supporters did/may have arrived at the Leppings Rd. End on this very fateful day. However as someone who has lived for a period, and worked in Liverrpool in the late 60's early 70's I know from attending Anfield on many occasions just how 'crafty' a certain element were in gaining free admittance. I saw one lad actually get on the roof of the Kop End of the ground. How he did it I will never know.
With the focus of the inquiry being the South Yorkshire Police, just how much blame has been attributed to the FA in staging this Tie at Hillsborough which was inadequate for purpose?
O
ogwellmike
Guest
X isle wrote:
X isle wrote:
Your “concrete evidence” would be totally inadmissible in the inquest on Hillsborough simply because what you say you saw at other football matches on other days cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as evidence of what happened on that fateful day. You clearly don’t understand the meaning of evidence.
X isle wrote:
Merely your opinion, based apparently on your own irrelevant facts. If there were some such fans (which seems likely, I admit because there are usually some at every football match) then if there was any evidence that there were enough of them to reach a threshold where they contributed to the tragic outcome, then the sworn-in jury (who studied all the evidence available for two years) would have found differently. They were under oath, they studied all the relevant evidence (live, first hand, testimony, sworn statements, masses of video footage etc.) and they concluded that the behaviour of the Liverpool fans did not contribute to the final disaster. Forgive those of us who disagree with you for having more faith in the outcome of the legal process than in your perverse and unsupported opinion. IMO you deserve the label “arrogant” which has already been suggested. Not name calling but fair comment, IMO, on your posts.
Wasn't going to get involved but X isle keeps on pushing the late arrival cause.
10,100 leppings lane tickets had to enter through 7 turnstiles. So say everybody turned up at 1-30, that's 90 minutes before kick off, they would have had 90 minutes to get 1,400 spectators through each turnstile, that's 16 spectators a minute, just under 4 seconds each, not much time I'm sure even you would agree. Given that not many would turn up until 2, surely even you would say that is giving yourself plenty of time to get in. Also there was traffic problems on the day, delaying spectators, the police would've been aware of that, they had the opportunity to delay kick off but chose not to, even though massive crowds had built up outside by 2-30 and they still had to get more than 6,000 in through the 7 turnstiles. Then you blame drunken fans, people had a few drinks, a few would have more, so what, it's a sporting event. How have a few drunken fans contributed to the crush outside or inside, the myth pushed by Wright and Duckenfield claimed drunken fans acted aggressively, that story has been discredited by the evidence. No doubt some ticketless fans turned up, but considering the whole area was covered by cctv, there is no video evidence of 100's as you say, scaling walls and the like. I'm sure if there was the South Yorkshire Police would've used it as evidence, unlike the evidence that they "lost" There is video of a couple of people being pulled out of the crush outside and over the wall.
The facts are that the police messed up on a massive scale from the organisation of the event, through to the usual ticket checks and crowd control leading down the turnstile area, they then got the management of the disaster itself wrong and to compound it all they lied about the causes, they were already pushing those lies while people on the pitch were trying to save the lives of spectators.
You carry on pushing the myths that have since been exposed as lies if you like, personally I think it's nonsense. To me it's more the fact that after 27 years waiting for the unlawful death ruling, on the day they finally get it you choose to put such a pompous post.
Oh and just so you know, I was going to games from the early 80's, in fact I went to a few in the 70's as a child, so yes I do know what it was like. I wasn't even aware back then of the F.S.A. So a fat lot of good you did with that. That's my pompous message to you!
10,100 leppings lane tickets had to enter through 7 turnstiles. So say everybody turned up at 1-30, that's 90 minutes before kick off, they would have had 90 minutes to get 1,400 spectators through each turnstile, that's 16 spectators a minute, just under 4 seconds each, not much time I'm sure even you would agree. Given that not many would turn up until 2, surely even you would say that is giving yourself plenty of time to get in. Also there was traffic problems on the day, delaying spectators, the police would've been aware of that, they had the opportunity to delay kick off but chose not to, even though massive crowds had built up outside by 2-30 and they still had to get more than 6,000 in through the 7 turnstiles. Then you blame drunken fans, people had a few drinks, a few would have more, so what, it's a sporting event. How have a few drunken fans contributed to the crush outside or inside, the myth pushed by Wright and Duckenfield claimed drunken fans acted aggressively, that story has been discredited by the evidence. No doubt some ticketless fans turned up, but considering the whole area was covered by cctv, there is no video evidence of 100's as you say, scaling walls and the like. I'm sure if there was the South Yorkshire Police would've used it as evidence, unlike the evidence that they "lost" There is video of a couple of people being pulled out of the crush outside and over the wall.
The facts are that the police messed up on a massive scale from the organisation of the event, through to the usual ticket checks and crowd control leading down the turnstile area, they then got the management of the disaster itself wrong and to compound it all they lied about the causes, they were already pushing those lies while people on the pitch were trying to save the lives of spectators.
You carry on pushing the myths that have since been exposed as lies if you like, personally I think it's nonsense. To me it's more the fact that after 27 years waiting for the unlawful death ruling, on the day they finally get it you choose to put such a pompous post.
Oh and just so you know, I was going to games from the early 80's, in fact I went to a few in the 70's as a child, so yes I do know what it was like. I wasn't even aware back then of the F.S.A. So a fat lot of good you did with that. That's my pompous message to you!
As an aside I was at Highbury and the problems there were solely down to the organisation at the entrance to the terrace and the inability of the authorities in managing the amount in each pen. Yes there were late arrivals, not helped by one of the special trains being delayed, I was on the other special and when we arrived there were big queues, we were escorted directly to the ground on arrival. Ticketless fans made no difference, you could pay on the gate, yet the authorities still messed up. Just saying like
