IJN":1fmio3c4 said:
The whole article is an absorbing read. David Conn has been a consistent campaigner. I understand the families acknowledged his efforts after the verdict yesterday.
-
This site is sponsored by Lang & Potter.
Hillsborough verdicts.
- Thread starter Green Rhino
- Start date
The whole article is an absorbing read. David Conn has been a consistent campaigner. I understand the families acknowledged his efforts after the verdict yesterday.
T
t._green
Guest
I do have every sympathy with those who lost loved ones on that day and to some extent I can understand their 27 year crusade for justice in the light of the original judgement. However, in the need to apportion blame, and to seek justice for those lost, one thing seems to have been obvious—this was simply a very tragic accident. No one, wished for anyone to die that day, yes, mistakes were made, bad ones, but it seems to me that neither the police nor the fans saw this coming until it was far too late.
I'm not aware of every nuance of the case, but it seems to me that it should now be left in a spirit of exoneration, rather than as a platform to pursue retired police officers for negligence even if they are culpable. Such action will not bring anyone back and will only serve to engender further bitterness and polarisation, paths well trodden these last 27 years. Better to lay this day to rest, to remember those lost and hopefully, forgive.
Yes, that is easy for me to say I know but it seems to me that 27 years is a very long time in a human life to look back. Still what do I know?
I'm not aware of every nuance of the case, but it seems to me that it should now be left in a spirit of exoneration, rather than as a platform to pursue retired police officers for negligence even if they are culpable. Such action will not bring anyone back and will only serve to engender further bitterness and polarisation, paths well trodden these last 27 years. Better to lay this day to rest, to remember those lost and hopefully, forgive.
Yes, that is easy for me to say I know but it seems to me that 27 years is a very long time in a human life to look back. Still what do I know?
Mistakes are made that is true and perhaps if the authorities had been honest and admitted they were to blame in the first place we wouldn't have had 27 years of the families seeking the truth.t._green":s41mj270 said:
Do you believe we should just sweep all the lies under the carpet and exonerate the people responsible for the lies in this cover up? I for one hope convictions follow, if we break the law we should suffer the consequences, High ranking Police officers are no different no matter how long ago they offended. It's a shame that the Chief Constable, Peter Wright, the man who appointed Duckenfield (a man who hadn't been to Hillsborough in several years ) as match commander and then led the deceit and lies to cover his back is no longer alive to receive his comeuppance.
- Nov 17, 2009
- 4,124
- 116
X Isle":3phvm7to said:
Pure propaganda from you as usual, if there was one shred of evidence that the corrupt SY Police could have obtained to take the blame away from them they would have moved heaven and earth to get it,the only evidence they gave were pure lies.
What your saying is if you are driving your car in a normal manner and hit by a car driven by a drunk driver you are partly to blame because you were driving your car.
dunlop":1o5i1tkl said:
I'm surprised X'y hasn't blamed Peter Beardsley. After all, it was his two goals that put Liverpool on the way to beating Brentford in the Sixth Round. In simplistic terms you could say that this event led to 96 Liverpool fans being in Sheffield that day. That's not how it works though. X'y says that some footy fans of that time would arrive late, ticketless and be tanked up. If X'y knows this then the police should have known it too and managed such situations..... but they didn't.
esmer":2utcx5d2 said:
But you are aligning the broader context of football in those days with a specific incident where there is no evidence to bear a correlation. There is no suggestion of riotous or hooligan behaviour that day.
Yes, people were late (surprise !), yes people had been drinking (surprise !). That doesn't make them guilty of anything.
According to a contributor on 5Live this evening there was apparently a well known procedure at Hillsborough known as the Freeman plan (named after the officer who devised it). When the central pens were full, the idea was that the gate to the tunnel was closed hence dispersing incoming fans to the sides. This was not carried out on the day when the external gate was opened. It is not the job of fans - inebriated or otherwise - to predict the impact of their arrival in the ground - that is the job of those controlling the crowd.
X Isle":1jrio58g said:
Just wondering, X Isle, or others still thinking hundreds of ticketless fans tricked or forced their way in to contribute to the tragedy, have you watched this video yet?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/vide ... ster-video
T
t._green
Guest
Mark Jenkin":2ssrs433 said:
What you say is true, the police should be treated that exact same way we all should be, so I'll certainly concede that point. My main issue is that whatever happened afterwards with the cover up, the tragedy itself was an accident brought on by too many people in too confined a space. Yes it was poorly managed by the police, and particularly by inexperienced officers but it was still a tragic accident that none foresaw coming
What your saying is if you are driving your car in a normal manner and hit by a car driven by a drunk driver you are partly to blame because you were driving your car.
Ironically if you were looking for some civil claim recompense then this statement would be true! In most cases your claim value would be discounted just because you were there..... The law at times truly is an @rse.
Ironically if you were looking for some civil claim recompense then this statement would be true! In most cases your claim value would be discounted just because you were there..... The law at times truly is an @rse.
The match commander was put in charge of the safety of over 50,000 spectators. He chose not to visit Hillsborough before the day of the game to examine the lay out. He chose not to put in ticket checks leading up to the turnstiles, he chose not to close off the central pens when they became full. The previous match commander (who was removed 19 days before the match) used these tactics, so he must have foreseen this as necessary.t._green":1oajr1ry said:
This tragedy may still have occurred, who knows, but what is known is that Duckenfield did not prepare properly for the event and thus increased the risk of the tragedy.
It is disappointing that some are still saying this was an accident. Accidental death has been quashed. The verdict is clear. These people were unlawfully killed. It is no different to holding a concert on Beach Head and leading 96 people over the cliff. That wouldn't be an accident either.
A
AdJoMa
Guest
Let me say first and foremost and unequivocally that those who died were absolutely the innocent victims of some - in hindsight - bad decisions by the police. They weren't helped by the bad state of the ground itself and prior warnings which had gone ignored.
If that was 'all' that was wrong and the police had been honest about their failings in the first place, all of this would have been dealt with years ago and families would have had time to grieve and find peace.
The really appalling part of the whole thing was what followed. The fabrications and collusion and alteration of statements is a total betrayal of trust and must never happen again. Those who sanctioned or ordered this fabrication must be brought to book.
Having said all that, I am not entirely sure that everything has been covered in this investigation.
Many have spoken of the regular hooliganism and violence which was prevalent in football in the eighties which culminated - for most English supporters - at Heysel. 14 Liverpool supporters were convicted of manslaughter and English clubs were banned from European competitions for 5 years. Hillsborough was less than four years after Heysel so all English clubs were still banned at the time.
My point is this: Can you honestly believe that in the back of many of the policemen's minds when this tragedy began, they didn't think initially "here goes another Heysel". (Justice Taylor's report doesn't mention Heysel at all.)
It is this doubt in their minds which I believe made things much worse than would otherwise have been the case. If the police had started reacting favourably say two minutes earlier, how many lives would have been saved?
My own opinion is that hooliganism throughout the decade had a direct bearing on the outcome of this tragedy and many thousands of 'football supporters' should consider their part leading up to this dreadfully sad event.
If that was 'all' that was wrong and the police had been honest about their failings in the first place, all of this would have been dealt with years ago and families would have had time to grieve and find peace.
The really appalling part of the whole thing was what followed. The fabrications and collusion and alteration of statements is a total betrayal of trust and must never happen again. Those who sanctioned or ordered this fabrication must be brought to book.
Having said all that, I am not entirely sure that everything has been covered in this investigation.
Many have spoken of the regular hooliganism and violence which was prevalent in football in the eighties which culminated - for most English supporters - at Heysel. 14 Liverpool supporters were convicted of manslaughter and English clubs were banned from European competitions for 5 years. Hillsborough was less than four years after Heysel so all English clubs were still banned at the time.
My point is this: Can you honestly believe that in the back of many of the policemen's minds when this tragedy began, they didn't think initially "here goes another Heysel". (Justice Taylor's report doesn't mention Heysel at all.)
It is this doubt in their minds which I believe made things much worse than would otherwise have been the case. If the police had started reacting favourably say two minutes earlier, how many lives would have been saved?
My own opinion is that hooliganism throughout the decade had a direct bearing on the outcome of this tragedy and many thousands of 'football supporters' should consider their part leading up to this dreadfully sad event.
AdJoMa":9pcq4re4 said:
I agree with the general thrust of your last 3 sentences. I recall the saying, 'Give a dog a bad name and it sticks'. I am sure this was uppermost in some police officers minds at the time. What bothers me is the proximity of the Police Control Box on the corner adjacent to the Leppings Lane pens. Any intelligent copper from that elevated position surely should have recognised the increasing congestion that developed and raised the alarm much earlier. I just hope that junior officers were not reluctant to raise the issue for fear of getting a bollocking from silver hatted senior officers.
A
AdJoMa
Guest
Quintrell_Green":2z86qv3p said:
I think we also need to consider the possibility that a number of policemen may have been suffering from PTSD following the frequent run ins with hooligans over the years. I'm guessing back then you couldn't just go to your commanding officer and say "I don't really feel up to it - but I don't know why".
I suspect also that police - like in many businesses - can get promoted and then moved to an area that they are not necessarily suited for.
I think in general, the public look to police and other emergency services to be almost godlike and are horrified when they turn out to be human with all the failures and frailties that we can all suffer from.
