Hillsborough verdicts.

[Mark Jenkin]

I think you're missing the point, most of the officers on the ground did all they could when faced with a horrific situation, (some performed CPR, some pulled trapped fans over the fence and some carried stretchers). The preparation and subsequent leadership on the day by the match commander was woefully inadequate. The same man was then the first to try and blame supporters by saying they had forced gates open, he did this while officers under his command were still trying to save lives. Those same officers were then pressured into writing statements which helped promote the lies he and other senior figures had told. It was shameful and for that he should be prosecuted alone.
I have every sympathy with the ordinary officers on the ground, they too have to live with what they saw first hand that day, for me they can't be blamed for the inability of the men in charge.

 

[TynanWozGr8]

The match commander was put in charge of the safety of over 50,000 spectators. He chose not to visit Hillsborough before the day of the game to examine the lay out. He chose not to put in ticket checks leading up to the turnstiles, he chose not to close off the central pens when they became full. The previous match commander (who was removed 19 days before the match) used these tactics, so he must have foreseen this as necessary.
This tragedy may still have occurred, who knows, but what is known is that Duckenfield did not prepare properly for the event and thus increased the risk of the tragedy.[/quote]

Exactly this

Duckenfield was promoted above his abilities, experience and training (from within the same Freemason Lodge as the previous commander????) and not visiting the stadium before the game to understand the layout has to be gross negligence - when things went wrong due to not knowing the layout he made the fatal decision to open gate C before closing the gates to pens 3 and 4. Whoever appointed Duckenfield is also negligent.

Having watched the bbcs footage in Leppings Lane outside the ground there was no violence or hooliganism, there was a crush because there were no checks leading up to the turnstiles and a ridiculously small number of turnstiles for the number of fans to get in - 7 for 10100!!!!!!! Blaming late arriving fans is a travesty when to get all the fans in by kick off would have meant fans taking an average of 4 seconds to get through, so evan fans who arrived in plenty of time could not get in time for kick off.

I think it is pretty clear in the timeline CCTV clips released, that the outside gate C was opened, the gate to the central pen was not closed, as in previous years, and ten minutes later people were dead. Although we will never know for sure, but it is highly likely that had the measures put in place by the experienced commander for previous semi finals been implemented on 15th April 1989, the this tragedy would not have happened.

I have always believed the fans must have played a significant role until the last few days. The jury have listened over two years and made their decision which I respect and agree with.

To say the inquiry hasn't covered everything is a joke. It is the very fact that there had been hooliganism in the 1980s and the events at Hysel, which is why the police should have put in place the necessary measures to control the crowds and ensure public safety - as the previous commander had in the years before.

I see Bernard Ingram, Thatchers press secretary, won't apologise for his incredibly insensitive and cruel letters written to one of the victims family, and does not accept the verdict, because he was told what happened by police the next day and still believes this was true.

If we football fans had committed perjury then we would have been held to account and tried in a court. Retirement from the police force should not be a bar to those police officers who repeatedly lied to enquiries and investigations from facing such charges.

How would we have felt if one of our children had died and then had to endure the police and the establishments lies and cover ups for nearly three decades. This is a national disgrace. Hillsborough Orgreave Rotherham and the attitude of the current Chief Constable of South Yorkshire police which resulted in him being removed from his position, are incidents which have irrecoverably damaged that force. The quicker it is disbanded and replaced the better.

I do not normally get too involved with posts on here, but I have found some attitudes surprising. These fans were unlawfully killed and the police, SWFC, ambulance, stadium engineers, the FA???? for choosing the venue and not ensuring a safety certificate was in place, were all responsible to a greater or lessor extent.

The attitude of the police and establishment towards football fans in general, and working people, the miners at Orgreave for example, was appalling. We were treated with contempt and Bernard Ingram told the people of Liverpool to shut up about Hillsborough.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... rd-3420040

I also do not deny that many police officers on the ground on the day performed heroically and were traumatised by their experiences. It is a disgrace that many of these officers had their statements changed to cover up the failings of their commanding officers.

The fans rushed in so they did cause the crush and some have chosen to believe this why fans are responsible, which is plausible and the reason initially given by the police.

However, what has become clear in the inquiry, is it was the failings of the police, the failure of the commander to visit the stadium prior to the game FFS, the decision to open gate C without closing the gates to pens 3 & 4 which caused the deaths and why after 2 years of evidence the jury have unanimously decided the 96 were unlawfully killed. I am sure the force and individual officers will be found guilty of gross negligence in future.

We should all be grateful that us football fans are no longer treated like animals by the police and stadiums are much much safer, largely due to the events at Hillsborough.

 

[ogwellmike]

AdJoMa has pointed out that Heysell in 1985 was before Hillsborough in 1989.
Apologies for my earlier post which wrongly said that Heysell was later than Hillsborough I should have checked. Sorry.

 

[t._green]

It is disappointing that some are still saying this was an accident. Accidental death has been quashed. The verdict is clear. These people were unlawfully killed. It is no different to holding a concert on Beach Head and leading 96 people over the cliff. That wouldn't be an accident either.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. No one set out to destroy lives that day. I know what happened was caused because of serious failings on behalf of senior police officers that day, but even they did not set out to cause harm intentionally. You could argue negligence and incompetence, with a good deal of covering up after wards, but nobody actually set out with harmful intent. Many of the police officers that day were traumatised by what they saw, some tried to help, others were shocked and bewildered. Your analogy fails simply because no one in their right mind would consider Beachy Head as a location for an event for obvious reasons, the difference with Hillsborough is no one even saw this coming until it was far too late.

 

[Mike Charlick]

It is disappointing that some are still saying this was an accident. Accidental death has been quashed. The verdict is clear. These people were unlawfully killed. It is no different to holding a concert on Beach Head and leading 96 people over the cliff. That wouldn't be an accident either.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. No one set out to destroy lives that day. I know what happened was caused because of serious failings on behalf of senior police officers that day, but even they did not set out to cause harm intentionally. You could argue negligence and incompetence, with a good deal of covering up after wards, but nobody actually set out with harmful intent. Many of the police officers that day were traumatised by what they saw, some tried to help, others were shocked and bewildered. Your analogy fails simply because no one in their right mind would consider Beachy Head as a location for an event for obvious reasons, the difference with Hillsborough is no one even saw this coming until it was far too late.

The only reason for the police to be there at all was crowd control. That was their only job that day. They had a duty of care to those people. Not only did they fail, they actually made the situation worse by their actions, both in causing the crush and in their immediate response to it. Then they tried, for 27 years, to cover it up. So don't talk about accidents. Their actions were wilful and had devastating consequences.

 

[cheshiregreen]

A little turmoil at SYP it seems.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016 ... er-conduct

 

[Mark Jenkin]

It is disappointing that some are still saying this was an accident. Accidental death has been quashed. The verdict is clear. These people were unlawfully killed. It is no different to holding a concert on Beach Head and leading 96 people over the cliff. That wouldn't be an accident either.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. No one set out to destroy lives that day. I know what happened was caused because of serious failings on behalf of senior police officers that day, but even they did not set out to cause harm intentionally. You could argue negligence and incompetence, with a good deal of covering up after wards, but nobody actually set out with harmful intent. Many of the police officers that day were traumatised by what they saw, some tried to help, others were shocked and bewildered. Your analogy fails simply because no one in their right mind would consider Beachy Head as a location for an event for obvious reasons, the difference with Hillsborough is no one even saw this coming until it was far too late.

You could argue? I think that's been proved, Duckenfield himself admitted he froze, I would say that suggests he wasn't competent to do the job. Of course nobody set out to hurt anyone, but if you are employed to manage the safety of spectators, and then are lazy in your preparation for the event, I would say that was negligent. Remember he was given the opportunity to go to the stadium and familiarise himself with the layout, but he didn't feel it was necessary, an arrogant decision which possibly cost 96 lives. He didn't even know about the gates blocking off the tunnel even though there was a map containing this information in the control box he was in.
In other walks of life people are held accountable for their actions, if a train driver for instance causes a crash by negligent actions he will be prosecuted.

 

[Bristol Rich]

Let me say first and foremost and unequivocally that those who died were absolutely the innocent victims of some - in hindsight - bad decisions by the police. They weren't helped by the bad state of the ground itself and prior warnings which had gone ignored.

If that was 'all' that was wrong and the police had been honest about their failings in the first place, all of this would have been dealt with years ago and families would have had time to grieve and find peace.

The really appalling part of the whole thing was what followed. The fabrications and collusion and alteration of statements is a total betrayal of trust and must never happen again. Those who sanctioned or ordered this fabrication must be brought to book.

Having said all that, I am not entirely sure that everything has been covered in this investigation.

Many have spoken of the regular hooliganism and violence which was prevalent in football in the eighties which culminated - for most English supporters - at Heysel. 14 Liverpool supporters were convicted of manslaughter and English clubs were banned from European competitions for 5 years. Hillsborough was less than four years after Heysel so all English clubs were still banned at the time.

My point is this: Can you honestly believe that in the back of many of the policemen's minds when this tragedy began, they didn't think initially "here goes another Heysel". (Justice Taylor's report doesn't mention Heysel at all.)

It is this doubt in their minds which I believe made things much worse than would otherwise have been the case. If the police had started reacting favourably say two minutes earlier, how many lives would have been saved?

My own opinion is that hooliganism throughout the decade had a direct bearing on the outcome of this tragedy and many thousands of 'football supporters' should consider their part leading up to this dreadfully sad event.

I agree with the general thrust of your last 3 sentences. I recall the saying, 'Give a dog a bad name and it sticks'. I am sure this was uppermost in some police officers minds at the time. What bothers me is the proximity of the Police Control Box on the corner adjacent to the Leppings Lane pens. Any intelligent copper from that elevated position surely should have recognised the increasing congestion that developed and raised the alarm much earlier. I just hope that junior officers were not reluctant to raise the issue for fear of getting a bollocking from silver hatted senior officers.

I think we also need to consider the possibility that a number of policemen may have been suffering from PTSD following the frequent run ins with hooligans over the years. I'm guessing back then you couldn't just go to your commanding officer and say "I don't really feel up to it - but I don't know why".

I suspect also that police - like in many businesses - can get promoted and then moved to an area that they are not necessarily suited for.

I think in general, the public look to police and other emergency services to be almost godlike and are horrified when they turn out to be human with all the failures and frailties that we can all suffer from.

You're missing the point, we expect the police to be human. What we don't expect is lies, corruption and 27 years of covering the own backsides at the expense of the people they serve.

 

[AdJoMa]

Let me say first and foremost and unequivocally that those who died were absolutely the innocent victims of some - in hindsight - bad decisions by the police. They weren't helped by the bad state of the ground itself and prior warnings which had gone ignored.

If that was 'all' that was wrong and the police had been honest about their failings in the first place, all of this would have been dealt with years ago and families would have had time to grieve and find peace.

The really appalling part of the whole thing was what followed. The fabrications and collusion and alteration of statements is a total betrayal of trust and must never happen again. Those who sanctioned or ordered this fabrication must be brought to book.

Having said all that, I am not entirely sure that everything has been covered in this investigation.

Many have spoken of the regular hooliganism and violence which was prevalent in football in the eighties which culminated - for most English supporters - at Heysel. 14 Liverpool supporters were convicted of manslaughter and English clubs were banned from European competitions for 5 years. Hillsborough was less than four years after Heysel so all English clubs were still banned at the time.

My point is this: Can you honestly believe that in the back of many of the policemen's minds when this tragedy began, they didn't think initially "here goes another Heysel". (Justice Taylor's report doesn't mention Heysel at all.)

It is this doubt in their minds which I believe made things much worse than would otherwise have been the case. If the police had started reacting favourably say two minutes earlier, how many lives would have been saved?

My own opinion is that hooliganism throughout the decade had a direct bearing on the outcome of this tragedy and many thousands of 'football supporters' should consider their part leading up to this dreadfully sad event.

I agree with the general thrust of your last 3 sentences. I recall the saying, 'Give a dog a bad name and it sticks'. I am sure this was uppermost in some police officers minds at the time. What bothers me is the proximity of the Police Control Box on the corner adjacent to the Leppings Lane pens. Any intelligent copper from that elevated position surely should have recognised the increasing congestion that developed and raised the alarm much earlier. I just hope that junior officers were not reluctant to raise the issue for fear of getting a bollocking from silver hatted senior officers.

I think we also need to consider the possibility that a number of policemen may have been suffering from PTSD following the frequent run ins with hooligans over the years. I'm guessing back then you couldn't just go to your commanding officer and say "I don't really feel up to it - but I don't know why".

I suspect also that police - like in many businesses - can get promoted and then moved to an area that they are not necessarily suited for.

I think in general, the public look to police and other emergency services to be almost godlike and are horrified when they turn out to be human with all the failures and frailties that we can all suffer from.

You're missing the point, we expect the police to be human. What we don't expect is lies, corruption and 27 years of covering the own backsides at the expense of the people they serve.

Which is what I covered in my initial point. The cover up and lies are far worse than the mistakes made leading up to the tragedy. We can all make mistakes - thankfully most of our mistakes won't lead to serious consequences - but no-one expects lies to cover up those mistakes and worse still fabricating reports to pass the blame onto others.

 

[ogwellmike]

Two Points:
• The jury at an inquest has to decide the facts of a case based only on the evidence presented and under the guidance of the coroner. The idea that they ought also to take into account the slight possibility that some police officers just might have been thinking about the Heysell disaster or just might have been suffering from some other PTSD (without any supporting evidence!) is fanciful - and frankly bizarre.
• The point has been made that nobody deliberately set out with harmful intent on that day at Hillsborough and that somehow that makes everything OK. Not!! If there had been any evidence of deliberate intent then there would have been a murder or manslaughter trial by now. On the other hand there is abundant evidence of gross negligence on the part of police and other authorities and this has led to the jury’s conclusion of unlawfuk killing. Prosecutions for Gross Negligence Manslaughter will now surely follow.

 

[IJN]

..........and hopefully perjury.

 

[ogwellmike]

.....hopefully yes.

 

[ogwellmike]

.... and Perverting the course of Justice.

 

[andyr1963]

The Police behaviour that day, stood in a line across the pitch when it was completely obvious that a major tragedy had devoloped right in front of them, people being carried past them, yet still they obeyed there orders and waited for further instruction. Trained first aiders standing and watching. Truly sickening. I know things have moved on in this thread but the picture, the video, just haunts me. WHY just stand and watch? Why could they not take responsibility for their own actions?

 

[cheshiregreen]

Touch of class from Everton.

https://twitter.com/KellyCates/status/7 ... 1125673984