Home Park capacity

[Biggs]

In the last 10 years how many occasions have we had chockablock crowds?

It needs more than one or two games a season to ever consider increasing capacity.

You don’t think we’ll be more successful in the next 10 years, than we have been in the last 10 years? And less important, but also that a much better stadium experience means more people are attracted to come than 10 years ago, especially kids and families?

I think 20k is the magic number, I reckon 15-16k is too small in the mid to long term if we’re semi-regularly getting in or around that in League One already. We’re not playing Man United today, it’s Ipswich Town.

 

[Bryan Tregunna]

You don’t think we’ll be more successful in the next 10 years, than we have been in the last 10 years? And less important, but also that a much better stadium experience means more people are attracted to come than 10 years ago, especially kids and families?

I think 20k is the magic number, I reckon 15-16k is too small in the mid to long term if we’re semi-regularly getting in or around that in League One already. We’re not playing Man United today, it’s Ipswich Town.

I hope we are more successful, but I know the situation over the last 10 years, I can only guess at the next 10.

But if we use the time when we were last in the Championship as a benchmark, the average in the first season is more than our current capacity, I'll grant you that, but the Argyle faithful will only come if we are regularly winning and near the top. In subsequent years, the current capacity would be quite sufficient, bar a handful.

Unless you think that we will get to the Premiership??

 

[Biggs]

I don’t really get the argument that we’d only need a capacity towards 20k (again only on historical figures, when the future could be more successful) a handful of times a season.

That just means we do need it, then. Mad to be turning away fans on a semi regular basis.

That is with the caveat that it’s clearly not a rush and it’s dependent on available cash, but the medium to long term aim has to be there if we’re going to be top League 1/bottom Championship.

 

[Bryan Tregunna]

1,000 extra fans brings in, say £20,000. Do that 5 times a season and you've got £100k.

But how many millions do you have to spend to increase the capacity? So how many successful seasons do we need to see a return for the 'investment'.

Imagine if it was your money that needed to be spent. I'd rather any spare money was spent on players.

 

[Action Jackson]

I hope we are more successful, but I know the situation over the last 10 years, I can only guess at the next 10.

But if we use the time when we were last in the Championship as a benchmark, the average in the first season is more than our current capacity, I'll grant you that, but the Argyle faithful will only come if we are regularly winning and near the top. In subsequent years, the current capacity would be quite sufficient, bar a handful.

Unless you think that we will get to the Premiership??

Agreed. I think 22k would be perfect.

 

[Green since 89]

Agreed. I think 22k would be perfect.

Absolutely with you there. Without factoring in the arguments as to why we are where we are, for a City the size of Plymouth I reckon that 20-22 thousand working capacity should be a minimum capacity for a stadium hosting the national sport. Obviously we are doing alright at the moment for the vast majority of games but there have been encouraging signs for a while now that our fanbase is growing and assuming that we can stay on our current trajectory it would appear that plans to increase capacity gradually might not be such a bad idea (and club is working on doing this for the upper Mayflower at the moment).

You could look at this purely in terms of how much x number of extra seats could bring in each year but there are also the individuals to consider who might become life-long supporters if they are able to get a ticket for a certain big game. So in theory, the more spare capacity you have, the more chance you will be enabling people to attend who might end up becoming season ticket holders, who in turn might end up bringing more people.

 

[Brechin Hedge]

perhaps a better perspective would be to have better facilities for a smaller capacity. If Argyle had a 20,000 capacity of seats and safe standing, all in the dry with decent exits and kiosks most would be extremely happy.

 

[Andy S]

If we do go up it will be a sell out most weeks - last time we got promoted to 2nd tier we averaged 16000 in first season and football crowds generally have increased since then

In the first season, yes...we averaged 16849 and finished 17th, but then the Janner started to get bored with the CCC opposition!

The next season saw 15286 (a drop of almost 1600 average) and yet we finished 14th.

Next...15,291 and 11th.

Can you see a bit of a trend appearing here?

Next...14,747 and finished 10th. So we're, on average of 2100 a week down on the first season back. Fag packet...2100x20x23 = 966,000 and yet the bored Janner still screamed and hollered for more players to be brought in yet he never turned up!

As a consequence, the next year we averaged 14,415 and finished 20th. We know what happened next...14,078 and relegated.

Tell me about these increasing crowds? It might happen once or twice a season but until such times as we have 16,000+ week in, week out, there is going to be no thoughts of increasing the stadium size.

Is it good financial sense? In a way, yes. If the increased gate money is spent on recruitment not infrastructure, then the uptake in Season Tickets will increase x-fold and that guarantees money in the clubs coffers, not having to rely on the fickle, bored Janner turning up each week.

All the figures above are from the stupendously brilliant Greens on Screen. Thanks Steve.

 

[jimsing]

People, we are forgetting that Covid has currently reduced the grandstand seating figures. It is not at full capacity and will not be until Covid is eradicated, or at least reduced, in order to get our safety certificate for the full use of the number of seats that we have.

As has been said before, Janners are very fickle and will only turn up when the team are doing well. Hence the increase in numbers at the moment. However, even if we get promoted we will still get smaller crowds as time goes on and we will get bored with competing in the bottom half of the Championship.

History tells us that this will happen, and even Hallett gives the club's projected ceiling as just surviving in the Championship.

We don't need a bigger ground, unless we make it to the Premiership, and that seems very highly unlikely without a much richer backer prepared to pay for the risk of attempting to make it.

 

[JannerinCardiff]

If we do go up it will be a sell out most weeks - last time we got promoted to 2nd tier we averaged 16000 in first season and football crowds generally have increased since then

My thoughts also. If we made it to the championship we’d be able to sell 20,000 seats against quite a few of the big clubs I think.

 

[HC Green]

To increase the capacity the Club would have to
1) consider whether the revenue from the extra seats against the cost of the works is financially viable over the short/medium/long term.
2) at what increase in capacity would the Council refuse planning permission on grounds of transport infrastructure or impose conditions such as having to pay for and provide P&R facilities that make it not financially viable.

 

[jerryatricjanner]

I know where both Andy S and Jimsing are coming from after 56 seasons following Argyle but some things have changed I feel. With current capacity we would not be able to achieve any of the season averages for those first 3 years back in the championship unless the away end was sold out regularly.
Secondly, I think our fanbase has increased since we last got promoted 17 years ago. Our attendances held up well during administration and after sinking to the bottom of League 2 and this season's attendances are unheard of in the 3rd tier since the late 1950s. We began the season with gates in excess of 11,000 before the Plymouth public even cottoned on that a good season could be in store and now average 12,000 plus. In previous promotion seasons(and I'm not suggesting this will be another) we normally average about 8 to 9,000 up until the New year and beyond before a few healthy gates towards the season's end might take the season average to 10,000 plus.
I think we have with better facilities and an improved match day experience attracted more women and more families to Home Park and I only see that continuing with the efforts being made off the pitch.
The aim even under SH is to become a sustainable championship club and I hope a competitive one too. Personally I think a capacity of 16,300 is insufficient and even with the grandstand becoming operational again just over 17,000 I think is going to make it difficult too.
Jimsing- is covid really the reason for the reduced capacity in the grandstand?
I don't think it's quite the pipedream to get the corners filled in that it was a few years ago. I can't remember the figures but I think it would add about 2,500 seats at a cost of several million depending what was put underneath and behind.
We had large cash reserves on the balance sheet but much of that has already been accounted for for sure with all the ground improvements and academy and training site plans and there will be little left from that. We also are likely to have an unbudgeted income of up to a million extra this season from attendances and match day spending as I assume the club budgeted for average attendances nearer 9,000 than the more than likely 12,500 or more we look like achieving.
Another hope is that one of our young home grown players brings in a substantial transfer fee and I think with continued progress Michael Cooper is our best chance but it would need to be several million at least. The academy certainly looks to be moving in the right direction and so the odds of such a windfall are increasing.
Safe standing will also add something to capacity when it is introduced so the minimum 17,500 to 20,000 is I feel achievable if the results and feel good factor around the club continue.
It is no good looking back at the old Janner mentality, we need to look forward and change that mentality.

 

[mervyn]

Jerryatricjanner makes some good points about future crowd growth, and I would just add that the South West now has the fastest growing population of any region due to people like me and my family moving here from the Midlands and South East particularly.

In the eighties when I first took my sons to HP and Sid James, they kept asking me why everyone spoke like pirates! There were also very few families, unlike the London grounds we used to visit. Now, around me in the Lyndhurst, I hear many non-Devonian accents, see more family groupings and groups of women only. If we can maintain reasonable success over a sustained period, then sheer demographics will keep the stadium very full.

 

[Graham Clark]

If we get to the Championship the EFL rules state,

34.3.1 Each Club must make provision for at least 2,000 visiting supporters at every home match or such number as represents 10% of the Club’s certified capacity, if less than 2,000. The League may, on the prior written application of a Club, suspend this Regulation or reduce the figure either for a particular League Match or for a period of time.

With segregation and the current reduced capacity issues the attendance for the Ipswich game would be close to what could be achieved for Championship games.

From memory the two quadrants either side of the Grandstand would add around another 2,000 to the capacity but the works to construct them would also involve extending the roof cover for the Lower Mayflower. That would make the cost per seat cost disproportionate and would challenge the potential rate of return of doing so. Add to that the costs of ensuring the Upper Tier can achieve its full capacity which may also include concourse alterations then the cost of getting to 20,000 or thereabouts, for which the Club have planning permission for, and which would provide for 17,000+ Argyle fans in the Championship is going to cost a significant sum.

 

[jerryatricjanner]

It's either that or stagnate with no hope of ever being more than a decent league 1 or struggling championship club. I'm not sure what the Devonport capacity is c.2,500? but I think that is the answer for away fans and does away with any real segregation loss of seats.