FA Youth Cup Third Round (Argyle win on penalties)

[Lundan Cabbie]

Yep

Little old Burnley? It must be some grudge.

 

[Emu]

Yep

Little old Burnley? It must be some grudge.

1993/94 and 1997/98 will give you the answer

 

[Balham Green]

Yep

Little old Burnley? It must be some grudge.

Just don't know our history do you? Probably time to get over it now though! I kinda like them thumbing their noses at all the big boys.

 

[Knibbsworth]

Pressure on managers makes it tough for any manager to bring through young players. That's at all levels. Ranieri wins the Premier League in one of the greatest against the odds achievements in sports history, but that's not enough to retain his job following a bit of struggle the following year.

Why would a manager risk his job in the short term footballing world for the sake of bringing through the next set of long term talent for the club? It's a much safer game to go with experience.

Experience costs though and Exeter for example largely can't afford it. Their business model depends upon them bringing through talent to sell on. Winning is the lesser priority. As long as they're not facing relegation in League Two they'll be happy doing that.

There's a balance to be found though. Adams definitely has assurances from this board that they have faith in him to lead the club to safety in League One. His first two seasons he was under pressure to get us out of the division. Youngsters didn't come into it. League Two was told to naff off, that was the bottom line.

With a lack of resources Adams tried to warn us that this season was about consolidation in League One. Bringing through the youth again is bottom of the priority list. We need to stay up, simple as. Maybe in a season or two we'll be sitting happy in the middle of League One and afford the luxury of being able to bring through a kid without our impatient fickle fan base calling for the gaffers head.

I mean he's already given Purrington a run of games and sold him on to a then Championship club. He gave Rooney an opportunity and he's been able to get another contract as a pro in Ireland. Fletcher this season has had a good introduction to the pro game and may now benefit from a decent loan move for the 2nd half of the season.

Yeah they're not flooding our starting line up at the moment, but it's a risk we can't afford. End of to be honest.

Terrific post. I think it was Bradley who summed it up when reflecting on Mike Cooper's debut. He said he played fantastically well, and if Argyle had been anything other than bottom he'd have started the next match.

We don't have the luxury of starting anything other than our strongest eleven to get the points required. Unfortunately these aren't the most forgiving of circumstances to let Cooper and Fletcher cut their teeth.

 

[Balham Green]

Pressure on managers makes it tough for any manager to bring through young players. That's at all levels. Ranieri wins the Premier League in one of the greatest against the odds achievements in sports history, but that's not enough to retain his job following a bit of struggle the following year.

Why would a manager risk his job in the short term footballing world for the sake of bringing through the next set of long term talent for the club? It's a much safer game to go with experience.

Experience costs though and Exeter for example largely can't afford it. Their business model depends upon them bringing through talent to sell on. Winning is the lesser priority. As long as they're not facing relegation in League Two they'll be happy doing that.

There's a balance to be found though. Adams definitely has assurances from this board that they have faith in him to lead the club to safety in League One. His first two seasons he was under pressure to get us out of the division. Youngsters didn't come into it. League Two was told to naff off, that was the bottom line.

With a lack of resources Adams tried to warn us that this season was about consolidation in League One. Bringing through the youth again is bottom of the priority list. We need to stay up, simple as. Maybe in a season or two we'll be sitting happy in the middle of League One and afford the luxury of being able to bring through a kid without our impatient fickle fan base calling for the gaffers head.

I mean he's already given Purrington a run of games and sold him on to a then Championship club. He gave Rooney an opportunity and he's been able to get another contract as a pro in Ireland. Fletcher this season has had a good introduction to the pro game and may now benefit from a decent loan move for the 2nd half of the season.

Yeah they're not flooding our starting line up at the moment, but it's a risk we can't afford. End of to be honest.

Terrific post. I think it was Bradley who summed it up when reflecting on Mike Cooper's debut. He said he played fantastically well, and if Argyle had been anything other than bottom he'd have started the next match.

We don't have the luxury of starting anything other than our strongest eleven to get the points required. Unfortunately these aren't the most forgiving of circumstances to let Cooper and Fletcher cut their teeth.

So do other teams not start their 'strongest eleven'?

 

[Lundan Cabbie]

Yep

Little old Burnley? It must be some grudge.

1993/94 and 1997/98 will give you the answer

Aaah, a relegation decider in 98. I definitely get that one even if it is nearly 20 years ago.

As for the other one, it wasn't even the final but who am I? I still hold stuff against Liverpool nearly 30 years on. A nine 9-0 defeat and them selling club videos of it in OUR local shops within a week. And of course, not to mention Palace getting kicked out of the UEFA Cup so Liverpool could have our place, I can never forgive that one.

 

[Balham Green]

Yep

Little old Burnley? It must be some grudge.

1993/94 and 1997/98 will give you the answer

Aaah, a relegation decider in 98. I definitely get that one even if it is nearly 20 years ago.

As for the other one, it wasn't even the final but who am I? I still hold stuff against Liverpool nearly 30 years on. A nine 9-0 defeat and them selling club videos of it in OUR local shops within a week. And of course, not to mention Palace getting kicked out of the UEFA Cup so Liverpool could have our place, I can never forgive that one.

Not interested. You are on wrong forum.

 

[Knibbsworth]

So do other teams not start their 'strongest eleven'?

You tell me. Did you think Gary Neville was the best right back in the league, Beckham the best right midfielder, Scholes the best centre midfielder etc. when Ferguson decided they were to graduate together and be first team players?

It wasn't immediate, Fergie had a vision of what they would become and moved senior Manchester United players on to make those spaces in the team available.

My point is that being bottom of the league with a lot of pressure on results and performances isn't ideal fertile ground for development.

 

[MarkMatthews]

No, it is a complete nonsense, to argue whatever the current league position is to hold back, young, local players. If we were mid table league one, the argument to hold them back would be, “we don’t want to get dragged into a relegation scrap.” If it wasn’t that it would be, “we don’t want to mess up our chance of a play off place.” We had this debate last season, those who pretend to want to see it happen “when the time is right,” said we shouldn’t risk it until we had securied promotion. When we did just that, the argument was “why risk Rooney, when we are going for the title?!” The nature off play offs will mean they will always have an excuse to avoid blooding young players.

 

[MarkMatthews]

Fair enough, though obviously it goes without saying they shouldn't be drinking much (if at all) if they're serious about making it. I'm sure they don't.

What about the other points? You're sure that their talent will remain the same regardless of academy status. Would you agree that pure talent is just the first step in making it as a pro. Tactical awareness, mentality, fitness, determination, speed of thought and simply knowing what to do in a professional man's game of football is what will make or break them.

Therefore Jake Miller's tweet about not giving any credit to the club or coaches is incredibly harsh. How did the team beat City if they weren't coached and prepared with all these factors in mind? How did they win without a gameplan and tactics? How were they even on the pitch if Argyle hadn't given them the platform to do so?

Firstly I’ve never seen any of them drink, let alone buy them drinks!

Secondly I would tend to agree with you. As an outsider looking in, I think the academy coaches and Kevin Hodges do a good job. That said I will take Jake Miller at his word, he is one of the former academy lads I do have a lot of time for.

Jake is a no nonsense type of player and he is exactly the same off the pitch, it’s what I love about the bloke. He has conviction of his beliefs, and away from Twitter they are well thought out, considered, well articulated opinions. If he thinks someone or something isn’t as good as it should be, he will let it be known! It maybe harsh, but it is almost certainly deserved. You only have to look at the reactions from the likes of Jamil Roberts, River Allen and Jamie Richards to see he isn’t the only one to have witnessed it first hand and to have come to that conclusion.

 

[Knibbsworth]

No, it is a complete nonsense, to argue whatever the current league position is to hold back, young, local players. If we were mid table league one, the argument to hold them back would be, “we don’t want to get dragged into a relegation scrap.” If it wasn’t that it would be, “we don’t want to mess up our chance of a play off place.” We had this debate last season, those who pretend to want to see it happen “when the time is right,” said we shouldn’t risk it until we had securied promotion. When we did just that, the argument was “why risk Rooney, when we are going for the title?!” The nature off play offs will mean they will always have an excuse to avoid blooding young players.

Certain circumstances make it easier Mark. Cooper and Fletcher are 18 year olds. The Argyle dressing room probably had some angry exchanges after the calamitous manner of the conceded goal v Rotherham, when two Argyle players let it go for each other and the only one who took command was the Rotherham player.

Young shoulders don't really need responsibility of this mess. In February/March we might be starting to pull out of it and the landscape might look different.

The other thing is that if we were to loan our lads out right now, who would realistically be interested? I've heard Salford mentioned with Alex Fletcher. Dorchester and Callum Rose. This is the realistic level of those players at the moment.

If you're Derek Adams and you know you have three or four potential talents blossoming right now, but you need a clean sheet and a goal in the match tomorrow, you don't really turn down Remi Matthews and put all your faith in Mike Cooper, or keep Ryan Taylor in the SWPL team and use Fletcher in the league. Can you not see why Adams prefers to use the more experienced League One pros for the tough objectives we are trying to meet?

 

[MarkMatthews]

Pressure on managers makes it tough for any manager to bring through young players. That's at all levels. Ranieri wins the Premier League in one of the greatest against the odds achievements in sports history, but that's not enough to retain his job following a bit of struggle the following year.

Why would a manager risk his job in the short term footballing world for the sake of bringing through the next set of long term talent for the club? It's a much safer game to go with experience.

Experience costs though and Exeter for example largely can't afford it. Their business model depends upon them bringing through talent to sell on. Winning is the lesser priority. As long as they're not facing relegation in League Two they'll be happy doing that.

There's a balance to be found though. Adams definitely has assurances from this board that they have faith in him to lead the club to safety in League One. His first two seasons he was under pressure to get us out of the division. Youngsters didn't come into it. League Two was told to naff off, that was the bottom line.

With a lack of resources Adams tried to warn us that this season was about consolidation in League One. Bringing through the youth again is bottom of the priority list. We need to stay up, simple as. Maybe in a season or two we'll be sitting happy in the middle of League One and afford the luxury of being able to bring through a kid without our impatient fickle fan base calling for the gaffers head.

I mean he's already given Purrington a run of games and sold him on to a then Championship club. He gave Rooney an opportunity and he's been able to get another contract as a pro in Ireland. Fletcher this season has had a good introduction to the pro game and may now benefit from a decent loan move for the 2nd half of the season.

Yeah they're not flooding our starting line up at the moment, but it's a risk we can't afford. End of to be honest.

Funny how we see things differently! The Purrington saga in my eyes was that (to his credit Sheridan gave Purrington his chance) after injury he then overlooked him, offered him a contract then left. The first thing Adams did was sign a 30 year old journeyman LB, ceromonially strip him of the number 3 shirt, reluctantly give him a run of games when there was very little choice, then make him feel unwanted when an offer come in to better himself! Personally I think that is really poor man management.

As for not having time and defending him for being in a results based business, well that is just laughable from the Adams apologists! He has got to be on one the most sercure contracts in terms of length, in the football league. And if he was being judged on results alone, he should have been sacked a couple of months back.

 

[HC Green]

Pressure on managers makes it tough for any manager to bring through young players. That's at all levels. Ranieri wins the Premier League in one of the greatest against the odds achievements in sports history, but that's not enough to retain his job following a bit of struggle the following year.

Why would a manager risk his job in the short term footballing world for the sake of bringing through the next set of long term talent for the club? It's a much safer game to go with experience.

Experience costs though and Exeter for example largely can't afford it. Their business model depends upon them bringing through talent to sell on. Winning is the lesser priority. As long as they're not facing relegation in League Two they'll be happy doing that.

There's a balance to be found though. Adams definitely has assurances from this board that they have faith in him to lead the club to safety in League One. His first two seasons he was under pressure to get us out of the division. Youngsters didn't come into it. League Two was told to naff off, that was the bottom line.

With a lack of resources Adams tried to warn us that this season was about consolidation in League One. Bringing through the youth again is bottom of the priority list. We need to stay up, simple as. Maybe in a season or two we'll be sitting happy in the middle of League One and afford the luxury of being able to bring through a kid without our impatient fickle fan base calling for the gaffers head.

I mean he's already given Purrington a run of games and sold him on to a then Championship club. He gave Rooney an opportunity and he's been able to get another contract as a pro in Ireland. Fletcher this season has had a good introduction to the pro game and may now benefit from a decent loan move for the 2nd half of the season.

Yeah they're not flooding our starting line up at the moment, but it's a risk we can't afford. End of to be honest.

Funny how we see things differently! The Purrington saga in my eyes was that (to his credit Sheridan gave Purrington his chance) after injury he then overlooked him, offered him a contract then left. The first thing Adams did was sign a 30 year old journeyman LB, ceromonially strip him of the number 3 shirt, reluctantly give him a run of games when there was very little choice, then make him feel unwanted when an offer come in to better himself! Personally I think that is really poor man management.

As for not having time and defending him for being in a results based business, well that is just laughable from the Adams apologists! He has got to be on one the most sercure contracts in terms of length, in the football league. And if he was being judged on results alone, he should have been sacked a couple of months back.

Just two points, if a Manager’s future was based solely on results Tisdale would have been sacked years ago as the Exeter online fans forum had over 1500 posts saying he must go, so he wouldn’t be around to promote the youngsters
It is always very good to hear of youngsters coming through other teams youth set ups to make the first team but we never hear of the hundreds that don’t, I’m sure at Exeter there have been and are some disappointed boys who have been let go.

 

[Kentishgreen]

So Jake Miller doesn’t have an axe to grind then?

 

[Mike E]

Does anybody have any stats on how many youth players each team will play in the first team on average?

Some clubs, like Exeter are FORCED into playing more as they cannot afford better players. We can, and I'd rather see us compete than play the youngsters. Sorry.

The general statistic is that only one out of twenty acadamy players will ever make it to any level of professional football.
It is a brutal industry, and always has been. So many kids throughout the country get 'scouted' at the age of nine or ten, spend the next six years (or eight if offered scholarship) dedicating themselves to a strict training regime and diet only to be spat out the system at the end of it all.