Decision time for 2nd year apprentices (merged)

[DartPilgrim]

YOU DON'T HALF POST A LOT OF RUBBISH :banghead:
By your reckoning we would have 20 or more players aged from about 18 to 20 bloating our squad , in the hope that one day they may prove good enough to play in an ambitious team that are trying to climb the leagues .
Unless of course you mean , we should retain those players that have gone on to prove they will be good enough .
Hindsight is a wonderful thing .
Different managers in different leagues have made decisions on our youngsters futures ( decisions they have been paid to make ) and not many of these lads are playing at a higher level than the one they were released from , which suggests that the decisions made at the time were the correct ones .
Also different boards and chairmen have been at the club , whilst young players have been released .
ABOUT THE ONLY COMMON DENOMINATORS HAVE BEEN THAT OUR YOUNG PLAYERS HAVE GENERALLY BEEN REGARDED BY EXPERIENCED FOOTBALL PEOPLE AS NOT QUITE UP TO THE STANDARD REQUIRED AT THE TIME OF THEIR RELEASE AND THE NUMPTIES WHO BANG ON ABOUT GIVING THEM ALL A CHANCE . :furious:

The only reason why "Numbties" like me "bang on" about them not getting a chance is because recently they haven't been. Whilst personally I was sorry to see Luke Young get released and questioned whether it was the right or wrong decision at the time, as most of us do with any player regardless of background. Even the most ardent of us in the pro Young camp, wouldn't argue he wasn't given a chance.

Similarly that was never the real argument we had about Harvey, that argument was always about the quality and fairness of chances he did undeniably get and if they allowed him to showcase to his strengths, it was clear he couldn't change a game with 10 minuets to go but was very effective whilst a starter or given at least 40mins. But when you look at the amount of appearances he has you can see why many people argue he did have chances.

Purrington did get a chance eventually but there were bumps on his road under both the managers he had and as Pele rightly points out was a very lucky boy to catch a break when it came and I think he would be the first to admit that and that by the same slight degree of bad luck his career could have gone the same way as many of his peers.

However the reason why it appears we are banging on about it all the time is because many have had either no where near the chances of those three or even absolutely no chance what so ever(the later includes an entire year group who won: the Merit League, Won the qualifying league for the Merit League the next season, won back to back Devon bowls and had a SWPL Division One promotion campaign. From that I do find it bitterly disappointing all we got from that year was Cory Harvey and Bill Palfrey getting a couple of games sat on the bench! I maintain that was a scandalous wasted opportunity.)

There is no reasonable argument I don't think, to say despite getting appearances : Aaron Bentley, River Allen, Jamie Richards, or those who didn't: Callum Hall, Ben Steer, Jack Calver and Bill Palfrey were given a chance. I've left out Matt Lecointe and Ryan Lane because their situations were slightly different. As I have Rooney as we still don't what will happen with him yet.

I'm not sure if its a fairly unique thing to Argyle or if it happens across the board but I don't like how the fans don't give them much of a chance either. Look at the results of that David Munday/Herald survey, something like 67% of people who answered that wanted Jordan Bentley released. My heart sank when I saw that, I really did despair. What are these clowns judging that on exactly?! Before he has even signed his first professional contract he sees a poll with a sizeable majority not wanting him at his hometown club. Days earlier he had posted on social media how he was "delighted" and "...could not be happier to have signed for the club I've grown up supporting." I hope if Jordan has seen this poll, then it will really spur him on next season and motivate him to go and stick two fingers up to all those boo-boys (and if I wasn't on a "family" site I would be using a much stronger phrase.) Jordan has got the talent as Derek Adams issuing his first professional contract to an apprentice goes to show, so go and sock it to them mate! Its certainly strengthened my resolve in willing him on to bigger and better things that is for sure.

After only one 10 minuet substitute appearance, just under half of people polled want Alex Fletcher released. Lets not pretend that Callum Rose would have faired any better than being just about on the 50:50 line at best either, so I hope that gives them all the added motivation to kick on and position themselves to eventually get out of this: small-minded, short sighted, backwater because when I see polls like that and then see the love-ins for the likes of: Goodwillie, Osborne, Bulvitis ,people saying they didn't get chances here or Argyle should have stuck with them and when I see Paul Garita voted over Purrington for YPOTY. I just think we don't deserve people like Jordan and Alex representing this club and they deserve better.

All that said I'm hopeful they will get more chances than many of the names I listed as I'm also pretty hopeful the Development lads will have more chances and a fairer crack of the whip this season as well. I also do have hope that the majority of fans don't vote in online polls and will start with a neutral opinion towards them and judge them fairly, hopefully they can go on to enjoy a long career with the club and become firm fan favourites.

Tell me Mark , or Pele10 how many of the youngsters released by Argyle during recent years are currently playing at either the level they were released at or higher .
You and others often talk about these youngsters not being given a chance by the club ,surely as most of these lads will have been with the club since they were 9 or 10 leading on to their 2 year apprenticeship , they have been given a chance , some of them have been given a further year like the pro development boys last year . Do you not believe therefore that it is possible that these boys are not quite to the standard required ?

You may find this difficult to understand , but i would love Plymouth Argyle to produce home grown players , but only if they are good enough .
If the club set the bar high , it may discourage some youngsters but it may also push others on , with them realising how hard they need to work to become professional footballers .

The club could aspire to spend their available funds on developing young talent , a strong youth coaching set up and good quality youth coaching facilities , and then have less to spend on the more experienced player . This way of doing things may lead to the occasional sale of a talented youngster for a big fee (absolutely no guarantees on this though are there ?) ,it may also lead to a dabble with promotion (personally i feel that to be unlikely ).

The club could also bring in a manager and players with the intention of making a climb up a division or 2 , whilst trying to develop the younger players into professionals who will be capable of performing at the level we are playing at , within the budget available ( to me the first team should be our priority , and as we climb the football pyramid , there should be more money available to develop the youth structure , and the club would become a more attractive proposition to aspiring young players ).

My reasons for posting about numpties going on about the youngsters not being given a chance are the vocabulary used in many of the posts " not the minute we have to put our hands in our pocket sack them off" :furious: What exactly do you mean , that Argyle or whoever was the manager at that time deliberately released players he felt could make it because they didn't want to give them a pro contract ?
Ryan Leonard as a PRIME example :banghead: We were in the Championship when Leonard was released and picked up i believe by a league 2 club , nothing unusual in that .
From that I do find it bitterly disappointing all we got from that year was Cory Harvey and Bill Palfrey getting a couple of games sat on the bench! I maintain that was a scandalous wasted opportunity.)
Again i ask you where are these young superstars currently playing their football Mark ? How can that be scandalous ? they were deemed not good enough and currently that would appear to be the case .
One poster , who, i don't remember , even posted last year that the youngsters should have guaranteed game time in their contracts , i think 10 games was suggested . Sorry but that is ridiculous .

Mark, similarly to davie nine , i enjoy reading about our young lads performances , i would suggest however , even though these lads are undoubtedly good young players , your opinions are more than a little biased , which in itself is fine , my problem is that you appear to be trying to portray your opinion as being more valid than the professionals employed by the club . Now these professionals can get things wrong , but the lack of former Argyle youngsters who were released by the club, playing in the premier, championship or the rest of the league , would suggest that the majority of the staffs decisions are vindicated.

 

[MarkMatthews]

I would briefly like to thank Davie for his comments and DP on his last post. That is much more in the spirit of engaged debate and an articulate well responded counter argument. I'm currently in the pub on my phone and won't be back from Grimsby until the small hours so I will respond to both of you in detail on Sunday. DP it was me who was arguing for "a dozen or so" run of games to be a written commitment in contracts. Again I will go into detail as to why on Sunday.

 

[MarkMatthews]

What were we supposed to do with Leonard for the seasons we were in the Championship?

Should we have held on to him knowing we would be relegated back to his level

Ryan Leonard was released at the end of the 2010/11 season after we were relegated to the fourth tier. Paul Sturrock then signed him for Southend in the close season. Every season since Southend have finished above Argyle. Its completely false to try and suggest, he was dropped from an higher level and picked up at a lower one because it is simply isn't true.

As to DPs point, its a point which Argy1e, expressed really well on another thread about how it can be a case of unlocked potential: cases of a player not settling in to his new club, if you have to go semi-pro then you don't have the time to commit as you take a day job, the facilities and coaching at your disposal not being as good, a knock to your confidence which might time to rebuild, a conscious or even subconscious decision to think "oh well that didn't work out I can enjoy the lifestyle of an ordinary 18 year old bloke with all my mates." Unless you've had chance to show what you can do in the first team at L2 level then realistically not many other pro clubs are going to give you much of a look in. get realised from a second tier club and the bottom two tiers are more likely to give you a chance.

I'm not suggesting every single player ever released would have made it but I don't think they need to come back to bite you or get back to parity with the level they were released from for it to be the "wrong" decision either, I think it is a case of losing more than you will ever know.

For the ones I've argued for a lot on here its still early days, they have had set back it takes time to overcome that. River Allen, Jamie Richards, and Tyler Harvey are all at a level Vassell has shown you can bounce back from so their hand is still in. I think Owen Jones will have restrictions on what level he can sign at for the next 2 seasons as he turned down a deal, Jack Calver still out injured, I'm looking out for where Calver and Steer end up and I'm not writing anyone from that year off yet.

Going forward, I think what you wish to see happen which is what I want as well as you is what will happen. Management made a big deal before they made offers that there would be no room for sentiment that they had to be good enough so they obviously believe in them. I certainly wouldn't say I know better than the professionals, but like any subject where you may disagree with how the club are doing, it doesn't stop me having a personal opinion. If this year had gone the way of last years I would have jacked in my Season ticket and I doubt I would have bothered paying on the gate for many games either. That's what I mean by saying have me support or not.

I notice Callum made it into the SWPL team of the season, congratulations to him nice to see him getting recognition from people outside of the club. He was the only Argyle player to make it so it is some achievement.

 

[TynanWozGr8]

I think the lack of genuine success in the pro game of those released by the club at youth / apprenticeship / first year pros is a relevant factor - the coaches haven't usually got it wrong

I agree with mark about the lack of opportunities for our apprentices and ben purrington was a well known example - who ultimately had a big slice of luck and Good luck to him

What is more worrying is that we are not producing players capable of league football and a full examination of why is required - them up road seem to have a production line going and offered five pro contracts this year. Over the next two seasons there is no doubt they will produce better players than our academy - the question is therefore why - two of their u16s this seaso. have represented national sides

I do not have enough knowledge to be able to provide answers but we need a full and frank look at the following

Our training methods - what are we doing differently - there have been suggestions our techniques are rather dated under Hodges leadership

Why don't we use as much modern technologies and classroom sessions as other academies

Is getting the apprentices to do menial tasks such as cleaning the ground the best use of their time - a little old school mentality

I believe most apprentices get a level two sports science BTec which is equivalent to O levels with argyle

Other academies do a level three BTec which means the apprentices are eligible for university and do not do the menial jobs - a much better use of their time and does suggest we are a little behind the times

What are the qualifications of the academy coaches and how many are x pros

I do strongly disagree with one of Marks previous statements that our young players struggle from lack of opirtunities only at First year pro stage and nothing can be levelled at the academy

It is good and effective training from an early age that is vital for player development and for whatever reason ours does not appear to be good enough

Funding will obviously be a significant factor and I think the club needs to start investing more in the youth programme and if necessary bringing In More X pros and radically changing the whole academy system and structure

It is so sad that our training facilities lack far beyond Exeter who have a new latest generation Astro pitch for their youth and first teams use

A full evaluation is required and I just do not believe that Exeter are lucky and have more talent in their catchment area they are doing something with their players which produces far better results than us

 

[Mark Pedlar]

Nearly all "talent" locally ends up with Premier league teams. Any that aren't good enough get picked up by the local club. At age 18 many of those that were picked up by Premier league clubs are out on their ears and picked up by lower division clubs and so on down. At Div 2 we will be lucky to pick up one or two that others have missed. We have ambitions to play at a much higher level which means using established players or ones cascaded from the youth set ups from higher up. Exeter have an ambition to play in league 1. They can't afford to live at the level they're on on gate receipts alone like we can. They must develop youngsters or go bust. We don't have that as an issue until we are unsustainable - history shows that's Championship level. Once we get there we will have to go down the youth route. Until then we can only attract youth players who will be good enoufh to play at below conference level. Ergo, what's the point in worrying about a youth set up unless it's the complete off chance we find a star that everyone has missed.

Every year will see a crop of youngsters come and go. History shows that unless we're tier two the quality isn't worth botheringredients with.

 

[TynanWozGr8]

I accept most of your points Mark Pedlar

Exeter are lucky to have a player like Ethan Ampidou who played for first team and Wales U17 at 15 Years old just signed as apprentice

I think his dad is part of the Arsenal youth set up

He was apparently wanted by Arsenal Man Utd Chelsea but decided to stay with Exeter

Why?????

Would his dad have advised him to stay there if he wasn't going to get a high standard of training and development - no chance

Exeter have retained better players and then sold later for more money - i.e. Matt grimes £1.75 million to Swansea and Ollie Watkins getting EFL young player of the year and no doubt will be sold for a hefty fee soon

I think that is proof that if the academy is good enough local talent will stay

exeters academy is very very good and attracts and retains the best local talent

Ours doesn't

Don't think you can simply dismiss as because we are in low leagues nor do we need to wait until we are In the Championship to put right

 

[Pele10]

This seems to be turning into a Greens v Grecians debate!

 

[ming the merciless]

The comparison with ECFC academy really just highlights how far ahead they are in developing young players. It's probably an unfair comparison as they have one of the most productive academies in the country.
In my opinion our academy has been in decline for a number of years. Perhaps since Gordon Bennett left.
Where others incorporate newer methods and ideas that have proved successful across the continent, we are more interested in sticking with ideas and training methods and sometimes a style of coaching that really is outdated now. Why? That's a great question. In my opinion some of the old pros tend to go with worked for them when they came though which is understandable. For example Kevin Hodges, fantastic player legend no doubt about that. I know he knows a lot, probably everything about football, certainly more than us mere mortals. But the job isn't just about football and football knowledge. It also about understanding how to engage and inspire young people. That is itself a talent that few people have, but one that is vital when hoping to get the best results in a learning environment. I hate to say this but if I had to listen to KH, I would go to sleep. I don't mean that disrespectfully but he's just not an inspiring talker, even with all that football know how. I think that focusing on football and forgetting that side of is a mistake.
I'll put it a different way. In school all those years ago I remember one particular teacher who just made the lessons enjoyable for all us students. Because he really new how to communicate, inspire and motivate young people. The delivery was so good he got through to people even though the content was pretty much the same as any other teacher. I believe that is a trick that a lot of football has missed and I include Argyle in this. I also think that Argyle have some very good coaches who have some natural talent for communication and some that are more in line with up to date thinking, but are they in the key jobs or are they marginalised by the hierarchy.
I've also heard it said recruitment and scouting leaves a lot to be desired. Too much emphasis on physicality and not enough on technique and ability. This worries me if we are only looking at early developing boys and overlooking better but smaller players because of their size. The thing about this is anyone can pick weights up and put muscle on. But there is absolutely no substitute for naturally talented players. No amount of work on the training ground would turn Robert Huth into David Silva. I think we should be only working with the most talented players available. Even if that means they will drop out due to physicality later. Talent cannot be learned.

 

[TynanWozGr8]

Agree with all of that Ming

It is not just the comparison with Exeter - it is comparison with any decent academy

KH does Like strong physical players. I attended 30 plus games a season in the mid 1980's and Hodges was one of my favourite players - I don't like criticising an Argyle playing legend but there must be reasons we are so far behind

The academy released an U16 this year due to his height and he has been signed by Cardiff City - a cat 1 academy without any compensation - which would have been circa £50k

Ming refers to outdated training ideas and methods and a scouting policy which prioritises size and strength over technical ability and this has hit the nail on the head

The academy needs massive changes and overhauling, and adequate funding or we may as well not have one

 

[Adam R]

I'll put it a different way. In school all those years ago I remember one particular teacher who just made the lessons enjoyable for all us students. Because he really new how to communicate, inspire and motivate young people.

Hopefully it wasn't English?! :lol:

That aside you make a very good point. There is tactical knowledge (which has changed rapidly over recent years), motivation, discipline general ability to work with youngsters that all combine to make a good coach.

No disrespect to KH, to us older folks her is an idol, a legend, but to some of these young lads coming through he may just be an "old school coach".

Would love to see us change things up a bit, move towards a new way of coaching, hopefully Harpers Park being developed will help, but with Marjons and Plymouth Uni we must have a wealth of facilities and technology that we could use to bring the best out of these players. Maybe it just needs someone with a forward thinking attitude to do that.

If we don't, out youth setup will not prove useful for the club, it will just drain whatever resource we throw at it today, but secondly it will stagnate the careers of the youngsters who are processed through that route. By the time they finish they will have learnt the "Argyle way" and be a few years older so less attractive to other clubs.

 

[DartPilgrim]

What were we supposed to do with Leonard for the seasons we were in the Championship?

Should we have held on to him knowing we would be relegated back to his level

Ryan Leonard was released at the end of the 2010/11 season after we were relegated to the fourth tier. Paul Sturrock then signed him for Southend in the close season. Every season since Southend have finished above Argyle. Its completely false to try and suggest, he was dropped from an higher level and picked up at a lower one because it is simply isn't true. Apologies , i too thought Ryan was released whilst we were in the Championship ,however on looking further into this Ryan was released when the club were in administration , the club were in turmoil , he was released whilst Peter Reid was manager , whether that was based on being deemed not being good enough or part of a cost cutting exercise to save money during the closed season i don't know , but an educated guess would be that the decision was taken by Ridsdale or the administration team , if that guess is correct , Ryan was one that got away but i would say the clubs football management team had no choice .

As to DPs point, its a point which Argy1e, expressed really well on another thread about how it can be a case of unlocked potential: cases of a player not settling in to his new club, if you have to go semi-pro then you don't have the time to commit as you take a day job, the facilities and coaching at your disposal not being as good, a knock to your confidence which might time to rebuild, a conscious or even subconscious decision to think "oh well that didn't work out I can enjoy the lifestyle of an ordinary 18 year old bloke with all my mates." Unless you've had chance to show what you can do in the first team at L2 level then realistically not many other pro clubs are going to give you much of a look in. get realised from a second tier club and the bottom two tiers are more likely to give you a chance. Again i would argue that by the time the club release young players , those players will have likely been with the club for 6 to 8 years at least, from schoolboy to apprentice and in last years pro development lads case another year , they will have been given their chance/s and the club have decided not to keep them . They should only be given 1st team games if the manager feels that they are good enough .

I'm not suggesting every single player ever released would have made it but I don't think they need to come back to bite you or get back to parity with the level they were released from for it to be the "wrong" decision either, I think it is a case of losing more than you will ever know. I would suggest most clubs lose more than they will ever know , it will be based on available money , top clubs stockpile the best of the country's young players just in case they make it , then use lower league clubs to give their young players experience and in most cases either sell them or release them because they aren't deemed up to the standard at their parent club .Where exactly can Argyle loan their youngsters ? If Argyle loan their young players to conference or conference south level they would expect those players to get regular games , in recent years i don't think has been the case , which would suggest the boys aren't up to the required standard at that time . With regards " wrong " decision , i disagree , i feel the club make the right decision based on their available evidence , if they do not believe a lad is going to break into the first team squad by a certain age , say 19/20 then releasing them is the correct decision at that time .

For the ones I've argued for a lot on here its still early days, they have had set back it takes time to overcome that. River Allen, Jamie Richards, and Tyler Harvey are all at a level Vassell has shown you can bounce back from so their hand is still in. I think Owen Jones will have restrictions on what level he can sign at for the next 2 seasons as he turned down a deal, Jack Calver still out injured, I'm looking out for where Calver and Steer end up and I'm not writing anyone from that year off yet. With regards these lads , how are they doing at their current clubs ? I know both River and Tyler went to conference national clubs , Gateshead and Wrexham and couldn't get regular 1st team football there , where are they playing now ( genuine question ) .

Going forward, I think what you wish to see happen which is what I want as well as you is what will happen. Management made a big deal before they made offers that there would be no room for sentiment that they had to be good enough so they obviously believe in them. I certainly wouldn't say I know better than the professionals, but like any subject where you may disagree with how the club are doing, it doesn't stop me having a personal opinion. If this year had gone the way of last years I would have jacked in my Season ticket and I doubt I would have bothered paying on the gate for many games either. That's what I mean by saying have me support or not. This paragraph is the reason i post what i do in response to you , you have regularly made anti management posts during Adams time in charge at the club ,at one point during his 1st year here claiming he had no interest in our youth players , to which i responded that it would take time before you could know that , now that he has had involvement in all things at the club and has good knowledge of our young players , we see 3 youngsters offered pro deals and 3 offered development deals which you say you are reasonably happy with . DA is not responsible for the development of past youngsters , he is partly responsible for the development of the latest lot and will be more responsible for next years lot and i believe we will see more youngsters being given opportunities in the future but only if they are good enough .

I notice Callum made it into the SWPL team of the season, congratulations to him nice to see him getting recognition from people outside of the club. He was the only Argyle player to make it so it is some achievement.

Congratulations to Callum .

 

[Pele10]

Could we afford to bring back Ryan Leonard?

 

[Argy1e]

Could we afford to bring back Ryan Leonard?

No. Southend rate him very highly. He was due to be out of contract this summer, but they triggered a clause in his contract to extend it for a year whilst offering him a fresh three year deal on improved terms. If he leaves it will be to a big offer from the Championship.

 

[MarkMatthews]

DP, River Allen, Tyler Harvey and Jamie Richards are all at Truro as was Bentley since his release from us. However Aaron has just been released with six other players, generally speaking, it seems like most fans are unhappy with those seven going. Their blame seems to be more on management. Most reports I have read on the Cornwall Forum are that Harvey and Richards are two of their best players. I think going by twitter, Allen is quietly impressing a few people and Allen was playing in the SWPL with Bodmin last season as well so its a great achievement for him to be back at not only, the level but the club, that Vassell bounced back from.

I would say to TynanWG, I don't think I have ever suggested that Kevin Hodges or the academy should be above criticism, just I would always be reluctant to personally, give criticism as for me as an outsider looking in, I think he is doing a very good job, in what I think is a pretty thankless task. I don't know the ins and outs of how the academy is run on a day to day basis, or how it compares to Exeter's. I also don't think it would be fair for fans to blame him. From memory of previous posts of yours, you will have experience and see from close quarters, how it is run on a day to day basis and therefore even allowing for any potential bias, yours would be at least informed criticism which I don't mind.

Also I don't know how small this lad was who was released but I reckon he must have been very small. I did find all the comments about Kevin Hodges preferring big physical players laughable because more often or not, when you compare us to opposition teams we look small in comparison. In fact I would go as far to say in the last 3 years, Jason Vincent and Luke Jephcott or probably the only two who have been noticeably, above average height and build for their age. Go back a year before that and Callum Hall, came all the way though to a pro contract, he cant be much more than 5' 4" and seven stone wet! (Not that I thought it matters, I think he is a really classy player!) Matt Ward, Cory Harvey (considering he was a GK,) Josh Richards (physical granted but by no means tall) Jack Calver. Not to mention according to HC green we gave a trialist a game against Exeter after being released from for being too short . I don't think Kevin Hodges, (of all people himself not being massive) discriminates against small players.

As for menial tasks, call me old fashioned but I'm actually largely for that. Aspects of it are outdated. I don't think they should have to clean/maintain senior pros boots (no Idea if they ever had to do that at this club or if they do currently. I know if I was a senior pro I would feel awkward and would probably let the lad off and do it myself.) I don't think they should have to clean up changing rooms if the senior pros have deliberately left them in a state, as long as they pick up tape and such after themselves and haven't banged mud off their boots over the floor and its just a case of a quick hose/sweep down or sweeping down the terracing etc. I don't have a problem with that. They used to make the HT tea when they played at Seale Hayne. I don't think they should find those tasks demeaning, I didn't when I was an apprentice in a construction trade, sweeping/tea making/fetching etc. were things expected of an apprentice and no one disrespected you whilst you were doing it as everyone had been there themselves. I think it installs a respect and a pride in the club, and its property, helps to keep them grounded. Of course I'm not saying they should be doing it all day every day and I've no idea if we currently have the right balance but I'm not against the principle.

 

[Ottawa Green]

Adam_R

Hopefully it wasn't English?!

her is an idol

I always thought KH was a man. :coat: