Decision time for 2nd year apprentices (merged)

[TynanWozGr8]

Totally agree with your last paragraph Mark - making tea at games etc is fine keeps them grounded and learn respect

My point is that after training other academies players have additional classroom sessions gym swimming and most importantly education - a level 3 BTec which gets access to university rather than a level 2 which is O level standard which I believe is what we still mainly do - rather than jobs around the ground. I know which ones arei a much better use of their time - this may not be the case at HP now but was two years ago

My opinion is based on limited knowledge and hold my hands up if wrong

I am sure that a lot of the issues are down to funding, trying to run the academy on a shoe string and to have kept the academy going through administration and the very tight financial regime that followed was a credit to the club - did the club take £400k out of the academy under Stapleton????????

The dedicated academy facilities I've seen such as Cardiff Bristol City Fulham Bournemouth Swindon oxford which are separate to their first team facilities - are actually better than our first team have. Yeovil & Exeter share their first team facilities but do include 4g pitches

What Exeter have shown is that if you have a good academy good facilities good coaches and a good reputation you will keep your better players at U18 - Ampidou for example who is seen as one of the brightest talents in the country and could apparently have gone to a premier league team - you will also then start to Attract the top players In The region

Hopefully as we go up the leagues and bring in more money the club will think about improving our taining facilities - we really need an Astro surface at Harpers Park

Without a financial backer it will be a longer road but investment in training facilities and the youth set up will bring long term benefits

 

[davie nine]

A lot of this thread is disappointing and demoralising. At a time when our Club is moving forward at a good pace it just seems that some posters are determined to find something to complain about.

A few people who seem to think that they are 'in the know' about Exeter City's Academy are suggesting that it is better organised than ours.

I hope that at some stage in the not too distant future Kevin Hodges and his support staff will come forward to explain the amount of work that goes on at the Argyle Academy. I recall that Kevin and some of his support staff were guests at a Senior Greens meeting in April 2016 and I thought that they came over very impressively.

 

[ming the merciless]

David. It is disappointing and demoralising.
But I don't believe we live in strange part of the country that is starved of talented young players and this mysterious zone ends at Exeter. No the issues are all our clubs failings. It's not our job to speculate about the reason why we are failing but as fans we want to see success. Maybe that's starts with recognition of what is failure.
Please Before feeling too sorry for the club and the Academy staff, take a moment to spare a thought for the lads in our system. The hours of work they have to put in, the sacrifices they make. Many will not have played a meaningful cup or league game or have a trophy or medal at home. They have been denied all that by going the academy route. Yes they along with their parents have chosen it, because they think they have a shot at making it. Our success rate at bringing players through is so low now I'm not sure it's fair to dangle that dream without someone having a serious look at what we are doing wrong.
Are our lads coming through good enough? Successive managers have overlooked our young players but played youngsters loaned from other clubs. That would indicate that our lads are not good enough or have not had a good enough education in football. So don't we need to see something change. If Derek Adams doesn't rate many of our youngsters just as his predecessor didn't, doesn't something need tweaking at the academy. I think it does and I am all for him strolling into academy HQ and laying down the law, making changes where necessary. I don't mean swing the axe but they are clearly working to a plan that is not working, let's get it right. Anything other than that frankly doesn't cut it. The boys in our youth system deserve better. They are giving up a massive chunk of their childhood years and I think our system is letting them down by failing to adequately prepare them. Then there's the boys not in our youth system, we will never even hear about the lads who simply turn Argyle down as they have heard elsewhere how the youth is at Argyle. Argyle have a reputation for having a fairly harsh and brutal way of treating youngsters, maybe the idea is to build resilience or character. I don't personally don't agree with this as young minds are fragile and this kind of treatment can be confusing for them. I reckon really the only thing we should be worried about is talent and providing an environment to enhance talent instead of stifle it. Don't try to tell me we shouldn't be shining a light here as something is clearly wrong and it would be ( as James Brent would say) a quality problem to have to have a surplus of quality young players that we had to cash in on.

 

[davie nine]

David. It is disappointing and demoralising.
But I don't believe we live in strange part of the country that is starved of talented young players and this mysterious zone ends at Exeter. No the issues are all our clubs failings. It's not our job to speculate about the reason why we are failing but as fans we want to see success. Maybe that's starts with recognition of what is failure.
Please Before feeling too sorry for the club and the Academy staff, take a moment to spare a thought for the lads in our system. The hours of work they have to put in, the sacrifices they make. Many will not have played a meaningful cup or league game or have a trophy or medal at home. They have been denied all that by going the academy route. Yes they along with their parents have chosen it, because they think they have a shot at making it. Our success rate at bringing players through is so low now I'm not sure it's fair to dangle that dream without someone having a serious look at what we are doing wrong.
Are our lads coming through good enough? Successive managers have overlooked our young players but played youngsters loaned from other clubs. That would indicate that our lads are not good enough or have not had a good enough education in football. So don't we need to see something change. If Derek Adams doesn't rate many of our youngsters just as his predecessor didn't, doesn't something need tweaking at the academy. I think it does and I am all for him strolling into academy HQ and laying down the law, making changes where necessary. I don't mean swing the axe but they are clearly working to a plan that is not working, let's get it right. Anything other than that frankly doesn't cut it. The boys in our youth system deserve better. They are giving up a massive chunk of their childhood years and I think our system is letting them down by failing to adequately prepare them. Then there's the boys not in our youth system, we will never even hear about the lads who simply turn Argyle down as they have heard elsewhere how the youth is at Argyle. Argyle have a reputation for having a fairly harsh and brutal way of treating youngsters, maybe the idea is to build resilience or character. I don't personally don't agree with this as young minds are fragile and this kind of treatment can be confusing for them. I reckon really the only thing we should be worried about is talent and providing an environment to enhance talent instead of stifle it. Don't try to tell me we shouldn't be shining a light here as something is clearly wrong and it would be ( as James Brent would say) a quality problem to have to have a surplus of quality young players that we had to cash in on.

With your views about the quality of our Academy compared to Exeter's, along with those of MarkMatthews, Pele10, sidelines1, briangreen, TynanWozGr8 and, from a different thread, Green Army 2000, it may be productive and beneficial to the long term future of PAFC's Academy to address these serious concerns in a letter (or letters) to James Brent, Simon Hallett and Martyn Starnes.

This is certainly not a criticism of your posts and opinions but a genuine suggestion that, with the 'inside' knowledge that you seem to have between you, it should be addressed to those who can improve the standards and outcomes that you are all concerned about to a greater or lesser extent.

I should add that I am also concerned with the negative comparisons that are being made.

 

[Pele10]

David. It is disappointing and demoralising.
But I don't believe we live in strange part of the country that is starved of talented young players and this mysterious zone ends at Exeter. No the issues are all our clubs failings. It's not our job to speculate about the reason why we are failing but as fans we want to see success. Maybe that's starts with recognition of what is failure.
Please Before feeling too sorry for the club and the Academy staff, take a moment to spare a thought for the lads in our system. The hours of work they have to put in, the sacrifices they make. Many will not have played a meaningful cup or league game or have a trophy or medal at home. They have been denied all that by going the academy route. Yes they along with their parents have chosen it, because they think they have a shot at making it. Our success rate at bringing players through is so low now I'm not sure it's fair to dangle that dream without someone having a serious look at what we are doing wrong.
Are our lads coming through good enough? Successive managers have overlooked our young players but played youngsters loaned from other clubs. That would indicate that our lads are not good enough or have not had a good enough education in football. So don't we need to see something change. If Derek Adams doesn't rate many of our youngsters just as his predecessor didn't, doesn't something need tweaking at the academy. I think it does and I am all for him strolling into academy HQ and laying down the law, making changes where necessary. I don't mean swing the axe but they are clearly working to a plan that is not working, let's get it right. Anything other than that frankly doesn't cut it. The boys in our youth system deserve better. They are giving up a massive chunk of their childhood years and I think our system is letting them down by failing to adequately prepare them. Then there's the boys not in our youth system, we will never even hear about the lads who simply turn Argyle down as they have heard elsewhere how the youth is at Argyle. Argyle have a reputation for having a fairly harsh and brutal way of treating youngsters, maybe the idea is to build resilience or character. I don't personally don't agree with this as young minds are fragile and this kind of treatment can be confusing for them. I reckon really the only thing we should be worried about is talent and providing an environment to enhance talent instead of stifle it. Don't try to tell me we shouldn't be shining a light here as something is clearly wrong and it would be ( as James Brent would say) a quality problem to have to have a surplus of quality young players that we had to cash in on.

With your views about the quality of our Academy compared to Exeter's, along with those of MarkMatthews, Pele10, sidelines1, briangreen, TynanWozGr8 and, from a different thread, Green Army 2000, it may be productive and beneficial to the long term future of PAFC's Academy to address these serious concerns in a letter (or letters) to James Brent, Simon Hallett and Martyn Starnes.

This is certainly not a criticism of your posts and opinions but a genuine suggestion that, with the 'inside' knowledge that you seem to have between you, it should be addressed to those who can improve the standards and outcomes that you are all concerned about to a greater or lesser extent.

I should add that I am also concerned with the negative comparisons that are being made.

This is an open forum, ok could all write letters to the powers that be, but people along with myself chose to put it on here.
Like most say, we are miles behind them up the road, and, there will be zero money put to aid the Academy.
Why would Adams want part of his budget put towards a U13 tournament in France, when he will be gone in 2/3 years, and not one of those U13s will be of any use to him.
Millions not needed, I would say the ability to pay better coaches to join, and better use of facilities (nowt wrong with the Marjons or Ivybridge 3Gs) but cramming kids on them is not productive, would be a start.

 

[DartPilgrim]

David. It is disappointing and demoralising.
But I don't believe we live in strange part of the country that is starved of talented young players and this mysterious zone ends at Exeter. No the issues are all our clubs failings. It's not our job to speculate about the reason why we are failing but as fans we want to see success. Maybe that's starts with recognition of what is failure.
Please Before feeling too sorry for the club and the Academy staff, take a moment to spare a thought for the lads in our system. The hours of work they have to put in, the sacrifices they make. Many will not have played a meaningful cup or league game or have a trophy or medal at home. They have been denied all that by going the academy route. Yes they along with their parents have chosen it, because they think they have a shot at making it. Our success rate at bringing players through is so low now I'm not sure it's fair to dangle that dream without someone having a serious look at what we are doing wrong.
Are our lads coming through good enough? Successive managers have overlooked our young players but played youngsters loaned from other clubs. That would indicate that our lads are not good enough or have not had a good enough education in football. So don't we need to see something change. If Derek Adams doesn't rate many of our youngsters just as his predecessor didn't, doesn't something need tweaking at the academy. I think it does and I am all for him strolling into academy HQ and laying down the law, making changes where necessary. I don't mean swing the axe but they are clearly working to a plan that is not working, let's get it right. Anything other than that frankly doesn't cut it. The boys in our youth system deserve better. They are giving up a massive chunk of their childhood years and I think our system is letting them down by failing to adequately prepare them. Then there's the boys not in our youth system, we will never even hear about the lads who simply turn Argyle down as they have heard elsewhere how the youth is at Argyle. Argyle have a reputation for having a fairly harsh and brutal way of treating youngsters, maybe the idea is to build resilience or character. I don't personally don't agree with this as young minds are fragile and this kind of treatment can be confusing for them. I reckon really the only thing we should be worried about is talent and providing an environment to enhance talent instead of stifle it. Don't try to tell me we shouldn't be shining a light here as something is clearly wrong and it would be ( as James Brent would say) a quality problem to have to have a surplus of quality young players that we had to cash in on.

With your views about the quality of our Academy compared to Exeter's, along with those of MarkMatthews, Pele10, sidelines1, briangreen, TynanWozGr8 and, from a different thread, Green Army 2000, it may be productive and beneficial to the long term future of PAFC's Academy to address these serious concerns in a letter (or letters) to James Brent, Simon Hallett and Martyn Starnes.

This is certainly not a criticism of your posts and opinions but a genuine suggestion that, with the 'inside' knowledge that you seem to have between you, it should be addressed to those who can improve the standards and outcomes that you are all concerned about to a greater or lesser extent.

I should add that I am also concerned with the negative comparisons that are being made.

This is an open forum, ok could all write letters to the powers that be, but people along with myself chose to put it on here.
Like most say, we are miles behind them up the road, and, there will be zero money put to aid the Academy.
Why would Adams want part of his budget put towards a U13 tournament in France, when he will be gone in 2/3 years, and not one of those U13s will be of any use to him.
Millions not needed, I would say the ability to pay better coaches to join, and better use of facilities (nowt wrong with the Marjons or Ivybridge 3Gs) but cramming kids on them is not productive, would be a start.

Can only assume you have intimate knowledge of the machinations of the youth coaching structure at Argyle, along with an informed knowledge of the monetary input and expense of running the youth set up . Not to mention a good enough relationship with DA to be aware of his budgetary preferences and future plans .

 

[Pele10]

David. It is disappointing and demoralising.
But I don't believe we live in strange part of the country that is starved of talented young players and this mysterious zone ends at Exeter. No the issues are all our clubs failings. It's not our job to speculate about the reason why we are failing but as fans we want to see success. Maybe that's starts with recognition of what is failure.
Please Before feeling too sorry for the club and the Academy staff, take a moment to spare a thought for the lads in our system. The hours of work they have to put in, the sacrifices they make. Many will not have played a meaningful cup or league game or have a trophy or medal at home. They have been denied all that by going the academy route. Yes they along with their parents have chosen it, because they think they have a shot at making it. Our success rate at bringing players through is so low now I'm not sure it's fair to dangle that dream without someone having a serious look at what we are doing wrong.
Are our lads coming through good enough? Successive managers have overlooked our young players but played youngsters loaned from other clubs. That would indicate that our lads are not good enough or have not had a good enough education in football. So don't we need to see something change. If Derek Adams doesn't rate many of our youngsters just as his predecessor didn't, doesn't something need tweaking at the academy. I think it does and I am all for him strolling into academy HQ and laying down the law, making changes where necessary. I don't mean swing the axe but they are clearly working to a plan that is not working, let's get it right. Anything other than that frankly doesn't cut it. The boys in our youth system deserve better. They are giving up a massive chunk of their childhood years and I think our system is letting them down by failing to adequately prepare them. Then there's the boys not in our youth system, we will never even hear about the lads who simply turn Argyle down as they have heard elsewhere how the youth is at Argyle. Argyle have a reputation for having a fairly harsh and brutal way of treating youngsters, maybe the idea is to build resilience or character. I don't personally don't agree with this as young minds are fragile and this kind of treatment can be confusing for them. I reckon really the only thing we should be worried about is talent and providing an environment to enhance talent instead of stifle it. Don't try to tell me we shouldn't be shining a light here as something is clearly wrong and it would be ( as James Brent would say) a quality problem to have to have a surplus of quality young players that we had to cash in on.

With your views about the quality of our Academy compared to Exeter's, along with those of MarkMatthews, Pele10, sidelines1, briangreen, TynanWozGr8 and, from a different thread, Green Army 2000, it may be productive and beneficial to the long term future of PAFC's Academy to address these serious concerns in a letter (or letters) to James Brent, Simon Hallett and Martyn Starnes.

This is certainly not a criticism of your posts and opinions but a genuine suggestion that, with the 'inside' knowledge that you seem to have between you, it should be addressed to those who can improve the standards and outcomes that you are all concerned about to a greater or lesser extent.

I should add that I am also concerned with the negative comparisons that are being made.

This is an open forum, ok could all write letters to the powers that be, but people along with myself chose to put it on here.
Like most say, we are miles behind them up the road, and, there will be zero money put to aid the Academy.
Why would Adams want part of his budget put towards a U13 tournament in France, when he will be gone in 2/3 years, and not one of those U13s will be of any use to him.
Millions not needed, I would say the ability to pay better coaches to join, and better use of facilities (nowt wrong with the Marjons or Ivybridge 3Gs) but cramming kids on them is not productive, would be a start.

Can only assume you have intimate knowledge of the machinations of the youth coaching structure at Argyle, along with an informed knowledge of the monetary input and expense of running the youth set up . Not to mention a good enough relationship with DA to be aware of his budgetary preferences and future plans .

Wouldn't say intimate knowledge, facts really.
KH lives on hand outs, a poor mans academy manager (not a pop at KH).
When the Taverners stick another grand in the pot (massive credit), or KH has to do a bike ride to help fund the Milk Cup, you have to think (in relation to monetary input and expense of running the youth set up) were potless!

As you quite rightly state, have not got a good enough relationship with DA to be aware of his budgetary preferences and future plans, but in a priority list including player contracts, player transfer fee's, grandstand redevelopment, Harpers Park facelift ( :banghead: ).......am positive youth development (Ben Purrington :thumbs: ) aint losing DA sleep

 

[MarkMatthews]

With regards to budget, I feel that should be taken out of DAs hands, find out from knowledgeable independents what money is required. Just throwing names out there I'm not saying it is who they should ask or be limited to, but people like: Dave Byrne, Danis Salmon, Gordon Bennett, John James even people like Mark Patterson. And then minus that out of the budget for the first team manager. If you accept the argument Adams (unfair to name him perhaps but any manager) is only looking out for the short term, as a board take long term issues out of his control. As medium term custodians look and protect long term before short term. Then again surely as someone who made it in football, someone must have given him breaks and chances, so here would be the chance for him to be a decent human being, do the right thing and help others with a hand up, instead of pulling up the ladder.

I like the fact supporters contribute towards the Milk Cup trips, I like the BGL supporting the academy, I like all the things Ian does to raise funds on here, again I believe that helps build a bond between home grown players and the fans. But what the club shouldn't do is 100% rely on it. If the fans cant meet full cost then still send them. Even if it means the grandstands toilets don't get refurbished or we don't pay for a Goodwillie or an Osborne, so be it.

It is pointless us writing letters to the club, we have no gravitas with them, they wouldn't listen to us,(I fully appreciate why they wouldn't, we are only ordinary fans!) One director has even publically questioned my emotive language on the issue. I now find myself in a difficult position because as I've stated in my eyes, the slate is wiped clean, going forward I do back management at this moment. We have just took three pros on and three, pro-development which I do think will be more beneficial this season than last I do think lessons will have been learned. That said I stand by what I was saying at the time considering: Harvey, Richards, Allen, Bentley, Hall, clearly only going the same way at the time for Steer, Palfrey, Calver, Lane and Jones and Miller leaving of their own accord. I simply called it how I saw it at that time.

My conclusion is last years second years were unlucky in timing not talent. Adams couldn't fully claim them as his project. They weren't "his players." He is a man that likes to be in full control and take full credit. I actually respect that about him but it did last years second years no favours. On the whole this years lot were better than last but not, 3 pro contract offers in a higher league and 3 probably improved development deals, better!

Like I said I was pleasantly surprised with what was offered this season, I would reiterate I'm now fully behind both first team management and Kevin Hodges, I genuinely feel positive on this issue for the first time in a long time. He has shown faith in them and I'm sure they will repay it and everybody will reap the awards.

 

[DartPilgrim]

Only guess work on my part ,not facts , but i would expect the board to have different budgets allocated to different things , including one for the academy . To suggest zero money going into the academy ? I don't believe this is a fact , surely just your opinion Pele 10 . I believe there should be more money put into the infrastructure of youth development , but only what the club can afford and maybe a change in the way our young players are nurtured ,because as has been pointed out by several posters recently , we haven't had much success recently . I also believe that getting back to Championship level and establishing ourselves there with good facilities that generate increased revenue should be the clubs priority . If we can get to that level , then hopefully , the level of our academy will improve along the way , which should then provide an increased number of better qualified coaches with hopefully a steady stream of young players capable of progressing to the first team .

 

[Pele10]

'the ability to pay better coaches to join, and better use of facilities (nowt wrong with the Marjons or Ivybridge 3Gs) but cramming kids on them is not productive, would be a start'

Think most would agree with this. How much would it cost extra per year?

 

[Kentishgreen]

I expect someone else has already mentioned this but why, if the Exeter set up is so good and ours is so poo, are/were the Purringtons in Plymouth?

 

[Pele10]

Ben Purrington was recruited 11 years ago

 

[willgreen78]

Ben Purrington was recruited 11 years ago

And Tom Purrington, what, 7 or 8 years ago? so are you saying that the Exeter set up wasn't as good as ours back then, thats why they came here?

 

[Pele10]

Ben Purrington was recruited 11 years ago

And Tom Purrington, what, 7 or 8 years ago? so are you saying that the Exeter set up wasn't as good as ours back then, thats why they came here?

Looking at the background, we were in the Championship, they were in the conference, but I wouldn't have a clue about the youth set ups back then.

 

[ming the merciless]

Its purely hypothesis but I wonder what Ben P would be doing if he'd come through at Exeter. Perhaps he would be even more highly rated and looking to play at the top level or maybe not, the truth is we'll never know. I'm more curious about why he seemed in such a hurry to get away in what looks very much like a sideways move.

For me BP was a huge success for our club but these are just to few and far between for my liking.