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Personally, I think no one has a wrong opinion and I don't really mind how anyone voices it 99.9% of the time. I just can't stand seeing our own fans argue in front of everyone else at the Devonport End, hence the drum beat at HT on Saturday. I just feel that people need to seriously calm down a little bit by other people getting so wound up. It's all swings and roundabouts, nothing worth getting a 3 year ban, court hearing and a fine about.
Chill Winson.
Chill Winson.
J
jacobmilton
Guest
i was down the front where the flethcer out banner was being held and the stewards where right over us and toke the flag away. now surely we should be allowed as paying customers to be able to protest in a peacful manner to get our opinion herd ?
jacobmilton":uh7x13as said:
Don't know about that, if you went into your local Sainsburys with a banner that read "DAVE ON CHECKOUT 9 OUT!" I think you would probably be removed from the premisis, your opinion on Dave may be taken into account but the company will not allow you to abuse its members of staff. Hope that helps :thumbs:
J
jacobmilton
Guest
GreenSam":127pscqu said:
I think thats heavily dependant on context, if it was a group of Dave's mates on a wind up then yes it would be consdiered completely innapropriate however if it was done by the average customer who had no opinion on Dave until he served them instore then although it would be considered an odd way to show your gratitude for providing good customer service it would be seen as a nice gesture.
Back to my point however I know the two aren't directly comparable but I wasn't looking for a like for like situation I was looking for a simple example to back up my point which was that an organisation will not tolerate the abuse of its members of staff, if they can find a way of preventing their staff from being subject to abuse then they will take this route, the theory of "the customer is always right" only stands whilst that customer remains reasonable and a step too far in this case would be to smuggle a banner into the ground to send abuse to a manager doing his very best by the club to the best of his ability. Ok you can sing and shout "Fletch out" Argyle can't stop that especially as they are backing a fans group based around chanting which will follow the trends set by results however when the club does have the ability to stop abuse of its employees then it will stop abuse of its employees...
All of us oldies know that the atmosphere was better when people were allowed to stand on terraces. However times changed and, equally, we would all agree that the atmosphere we regularly enjoyed had disappeared almost entirely from HP as well as the vast majority of other grounds. Spontaneous chanting is preferable but it wasn't happening, and wasn't likely to happen due to all seating stadia and the vast increase in the relative expense of attending matches - plus the multitude of other competing attractions that exist nowadays.
FV is an attempt to organise some atmosphere as even that is preferable to no atmosphere at all.
Too many still compare the atmosphere with the old Demport (or Lyndhurst) when they should be comparing it to the morgues and libraries we regularly visit on awaydays. Loads of visiting managers make mention of the noise the HP crowd generates (and away defenders increasingly acknowledge & applaud it) because they compare it to the poor home support they play to every second week.
Nobody is saying it's ideal but participation in the initiative is generating some noise as well as making the 'matchday experience' more memorable for the next generation of Argyle fans who will still be around when us oldies are no longer around. I hope the FV continue to wave their flags and sing their songs because HP would be a duller place without them.
FV is an attempt to organise some atmosphere as even that is preferable to no atmosphere at all.
Too many still compare the atmosphere with the old Demport (or Lyndhurst) when they should be comparing it to the morgues and libraries we regularly visit on awaydays. Loads of visiting managers make mention of the noise the HP crowd generates (and away defenders increasingly acknowledge & applaud it) because they compare it to the poor home support they play to every second week.
Nobody is saying it's ideal but participation in the initiative is generating some noise as well as making the 'matchday experience' more memorable for the next generation of Argyle fans who will still be around when us oldies are no longer around. I hope the FV continue to wave their flags and sing their songs because HP would be a duller place without them.
Ollieargyle9,
Sure, I get that point of view entirely.
The slightly facetious point about Sainsbury's being different wasn't just to try and be clever though, I do think it means something. Football is mostly different from Sainsbury's in that at its very core is so successful cause fans turn up. If not for fans, all football would be would be a kickabout and a hobby. It's what it is cause of the fans.
The main differences with Sainbury's is that they're dependent on customers, not fans. In raw business terms, fans are customers but in real, qualitative terms they're so much more than that. I'll give you Tom from North London (who I've just made up but by the laws of probability is likely to exist). He rotates his shopping from Sainsbury's to Asda based on when he thinks he can get the best deals and the best value for his money. He doesn't do the same with his football club however. He's an Arsenal fan and when it looked like Spurs were gonna come above them in the league last year, the very thought of changing his allegiances made him sick. Football is more than just a customer business relationship, it's an attachment and that's what separates fans from customers.
Of course you know all this, so why am I telling you? I'm only going over it because I think it's key to why dissenting voices at football grounds SHOULD be given airtime. Fans being different from customers is what has caused "fan culture" to develop over the years. It's why we sing to show support during games, it's why we go crazy with joy every time we win, it's why we chant the name of our favourite player, it's why winning a game puts us in a good mood the whole next day. I only think it's natural and fair that this rather specialised customer environment should allow rather different expressions of opinion. It's because we care that we get so happy and give so much support when things are going well. If we get hacked off with a company, the natural thing to do is not to use them again. The distinction is that none of us want to do that with Argyle because the care is too strong and we want to be there when the good times return so they can taste all the more sweet. When such an emotional connection exists, we give praise when it's needed, we cheer the team on and I think it's fair that we criticise when we feel it is due. You could argue that a banner isn't the best conduit- but its the same conduit one would use to show support.
I think only if Sainbury's (or any estate agents, mobile phone company or whatever) was something in which we invested emotional energy into, showed support to and cared for would public criticism be in any way analogous. In most circumstances, I entirely agree it would be unfair and wrong to criticise employees in public. In football however, where supportive songs from the stand and mass encouragement are commonplace there is a distinction. The emotional bond, or at least perceived emotional bond between customers and business is what entirely differentiates things. It's almost the informality of football as a business. Imagine criticising your best mate constructively and criticising someone you've just met constructively. The latter you'd go about in a more delicate and "proper" way. Your best mate you'd be more likely to tell it to straight. I think that's why football's different. When fans follow teams around the country to grim November nights in Fleetwood and go crazy when a goal is scored, it's a little bit more reasonable to account for blunt reactions to poor performances and vigourous desire for change and improvement then it is for someone who buys their own brand washing powder from Sainsbury's, but only when the Asda stuff has gone up in price.
Sure, I get that point of view entirely.
The slightly facetious point about Sainsbury's being different wasn't just to try and be clever though, I do think it means something. Football is mostly different from Sainsbury's in that at its very core is so successful cause fans turn up. If not for fans, all football would be would be a kickabout and a hobby. It's what it is cause of the fans.
The main differences with Sainbury's is that they're dependent on customers, not fans. In raw business terms, fans are customers but in real, qualitative terms they're so much more than that. I'll give you Tom from North London (who I've just made up but by the laws of probability is likely to exist). He rotates his shopping from Sainsbury's to Asda based on when he thinks he can get the best deals and the best value for his money. He doesn't do the same with his football club however. He's an Arsenal fan and when it looked like Spurs were gonna come above them in the league last year, the very thought of changing his allegiances made him sick. Football is more than just a customer business relationship, it's an attachment and that's what separates fans from customers.
Of course you know all this, so why am I telling you? I'm only going over it because I think it's key to why dissenting voices at football grounds SHOULD be given airtime. Fans being different from customers is what has caused "fan culture" to develop over the years. It's why we sing to show support during games, it's why we go crazy with joy every time we win, it's why we chant the name of our favourite player, it's why winning a game puts us in a good mood the whole next day. I only think it's natural and fair that this rather specialised customer environment should allow rather different expressions of opinion. It's because we care that we get so happy and give so much support when things are going well. If we get hacked off with a company, the natural thing to do is not to use them again. The distinction is that none of us want to do that with Argyle because the care is too strong and we want to be there when the good times return so they can taste all the more sweet. When such an emotional connection exists, we give praise when it's needed, we cheer the team on and I think it's fair that we criticise when we feel it is due. You could argue that a banner isn't the best conduit- but its the same conduit one would use to show support.
I think only if Sainbury's (or any estate agents, mobile phone company or whatever) was something in which we invested emotional energy into, showed support to and cared for would public criticism be in any way analogous. In most circumstances, I entirely agree it would be unfair and wrong to criticise employees in public. In football however, where supportive songs from the stand and mass encouragement are commonplace there is a distinction. The emotional bond, or at least perceived emotional bond between customers and business is what entirely differentiates things. It's almost the informality of football as a business. Imagine criticising your best mate constructively and criticising someone you've just met constructively. The latter you'd go about in a more delicate and "proper" way. Your best mate you'd be more likely to tell it to straight. I think that's why football's different. When fans follow teams around the country to grim November nights in Fleetwood and go crazy when a goal is scored, it's a little bit more reasonable to account for blunt reactions to poor performances and vigourous desire for change and improvement then it is for someone who buys their own brand washing powder from Sainsbury's, but only when the Asda stuff has gone up in price.
GreenSam":uk6n2vww said:
I'll keep this brief (by my standards anyway) because I have to be up early in the morning and am already over half an hour into my sleep allocation as I begin my response :lol:
I completely get what you are saying in that the customer/organisation relationship is entirely different when it comes to a football club in comparison with your average retailer. Looking at the factors influencing demand, competition from rival firms within your market for is practically zero in football as clubs are competing for results not customer loyalty, of course there are substitutes such as football on Sky or in Argyle fans cases folding your socks however as you say football is more or less the desired position most regular companies would have their customers if it were possible with football clubs having huge levels of "brand loyalty" amongst their customers so much so that their customers are highly unlikely to "change brand" despite any of the regular factors of a firms competitveness.
Similarly as you say fans who have limited power in that they have no way of turning around and saying "I'm moving to a rival firm" and so who's only alternatives is either to vote with their feet or moan with their voice when the product served up isn't upto their liking. However as a club it is very difficult to get that balance, on the one hand you have fans demanding their right to a say and on the other you have a manager which you claim to back by not letting him go, you cannot turn around and say "sorry Fletch, we back you 100% however that banner over there is staying put because we don't want to be seen as supporting you and disagreeing with the fans". It cannot be done without upsetting the manager and therefore upsetting the players and therefore further reducing the "product" on offer. The club will have listened to the opinions of the fans, thousands of voices do not go unheard decisions will most likely have been made based on the reactions of the fans however as long as the club keeps Fletch in charge it will have to do its best to show its support for him by stamping out the abuse it has the power to stamp out knowing full well it may upset the fans however it is a decision that has to be taken not only to support their employee but to allow him to do his job whilst he still has it without distractions coming from the crowd in the form of banners.
Argyle are trying to become a club built around the fans and the opinions of fans who in the past were ignored and allowed to believe all was well when it clearly wasn't and so Argyle have made in roads in giving us a voice by setting up supporters boards, by setting up fan groups based around cheering (and jeering should it be required) on the lads and by reacting to complaints and suggestions made on Pasoti and to the club directly. However there is a certain point where it is no longer a case of giving fans a voice but being seen to be doing something to support the manager, I am a big believer in the right to an opinion however I don't see this as a time where the fans right to opinions have come into question more a time where fans have gone above and beyond showing an opinion and moved into the territory of being detrimental to the team on the pitch by showing pre-planned (rather than the usual spur of the moment chanting) attack on the manager...
Anyway, I think the more important question here is how on earth I managed to get drawn into posting two monster messages on here after simply posting a throw away comment made with humourous intent more than anything. The reason I saw it as humourous was the exact reasons you mention Sam, football and Sainsburys are completely different in that they are two extremes of customer behaviour, which was sort of the joke behind my post :lol:
Right looking back I think this isn't a short post by my standards, more of an middle of the row Ollie post but I've written it now and have lost a lot more sleep time than expected, time to call it a night I think :thumbs:
Ollieargyle9":t7fb4hj7 said:
:lol: This is the most bizarre analogy I've ever heard.
Do thousands of people pay to turn up to Sainsbury's, hand over 20 quid for the entrance fee alone (or customer service experience, as you have decided to draw the parallel), chant "Dave, Dave, give us a wave!" from the checkout queues, and then leave? Do Tesco customers walk around Sainsbury's with banners - 18 UK titles, and 4 times European trophies for best supermarket of the year? "You're all shiit, AAAAAAAGGH"
Argyle is a football club, like thousands of others, part of our community history, our own personal memories, and passions run deep. This isn't 'just business'. The only part of it that has any parallels with business studies A-level is that the club needs to pay its taxes, its debts, and try and make a profit. The other theories people use from business, such as for deciding an appropriate time to sack Fletcher amongst other things are totally inappropriate.