F1 2021

[Quinny]

Whenever Max has got his elbows out, he has received a penalty for it, apart from Brazil which Lewis won anyway.

I think Max's driving manners are ... questionable ... but that aside I'm not going to argue that he deserves the drivers championship over the course of the season because - he does.

But this mess was caused by the decision by the race director who made a judgement call to over-rule the rules to allow a final sprint final lap race. I'm sure every driver and team - inc Mercedes and Hamilton - would have agreed to such a rule change before the race started and they would have changed their race strategy accordingly, but to have a decision for one last flying lap when all the lapped drivers hadn't been properly cleared when it was painfully obvious to all that Max was on fresh rubber - that isn't a fair last final lap, and I don't blame Mercedes wanting to take it further.

I've no qualms about Max winning the race and the championship, but it's one thing to have tough fighting on the track: having the race director making things up on the hoof is something completely different,

 

[Ade the green]

Max and to a greater extent Christian Horner have whined and b itched their way to a world championship.
Max has always had a go-karting feel to his driving. Take yesterday on the first lap and look at Max’s dive and the position of the cars. Regardless of staying within the white lines, can anybody say his car was in the natural position to take that corner.
part of his whining recently has included him saying that he is always being reprimanded, really? Then calm yourself down and stop doing things that cause you to be reprimanded. His radio message about buying the stewards wine is disingenuous and shows a distinct lack of respect towards others. The race before last and he definitely braketested Hamilton because of the reasons Horner blamed Hamilton for. As for yesterday, how can a driver that led for 55 laps out of 58 lose? Because it was fixed by Masi. All very well saying the race should finish as a race but it wasn’t a fair race because of what went on before. For me, the best thing would have been to start racing before letting the lapped cars go which would have evened up the new versus old, soft versus hard tyres and probably Max would have got past the back markets and still had a chance of a victory. As it played out Hamilton had no chance but he drove a masterful last lap even to keep Max in sight.
Earlier in the season, Max picked up points because his aggressive driving caused Hamilton to give up track position and it was only when Hamilton decided to fight back that the problems occurred. Even then that little b itch Horner could never give credit where it was due.
Also, Hamilton did everything on his own. His “backup” of Valero Bottas checked out of the Mercedes team half way through the season when he knew he was to be replaced.
Hamilton is still the far better and more mature driver of the two.

 

[Andy S]

I think your dislike of Max is clouding your judgement, Andy.

Whenever Max has got his elbows out, he has received a penalty for it, apart from Brazil which Lewis won anyway.

When they got together in Silverstone, Lewis’ fault, meaningless penalty given, Lewis gained 25pts over max.

Monza, Max’s fault but no gain for either and Max got a penalty at the following race.

Max tyre blew at Baku loosing him 25pts through no fault of his own. Lewis made a mistake at the restart so he lost points by his own mistake.

Hungary, Max taken out by Botas and raced with a heavily damaged car. Hamilton made a mistake and chose to start on wet tyres with a drying track, got 18pts after a bad call, while Max got minimal points through no fault of his own.

Imola, Max wins while Lewis goes off track and damages his car and is a lap down without any chance of points. Big accident involving Bottas brings out red flag. Lewis in a repaired car and reinstalled onto the lead lap gets 18pts.

Max wins Spa which is 2 laps behind safety car. His 7pts advantage for a win is only 3.5 due to half points, although he didn’t have to race for those points.

Overall, without the bad luck Max would have wrapped it up with a few races to spare. He had a bit of luck yesterday, but Hamilton has had quite a bit of luck all season. The championship is run over a 22 races, not just the last one and overall, Max deserved to win it.

I've got a nice orange shirt I'll send you Keith!

Once Latiffe had hit the wall, the axe had fallen on Lewis Hamilton's season...full stop, end of story. If you can't see that, you really are blind mate.

Had Hamilton pitted and changed to softs, he would have lost position and the race WOULD have ended behind the safety car. Hamilton received an 11 second penalty from Masi. Why? Who knows...but we can all speculate and I hope that the brown envelope was big enough to end Masi's spell as Race Director.

Since you want to quote stuff Keith, since when was a team given options to negotiate a penalty? Or is that permitted because it was RBR.

Verstappen didn't have "luck" yesterday. "Luck" is a chance happening. What happened at the end of yesterday's GP was anything but "luck". It was contrived.

You don't like Hamilton (blatantly obvious), I don't like Verstappen. Fwiw, I don't like Horner either and I certainly despise Marko...who obviously has his own personal hotline to both F1 and the FIA.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[GreenThing]

That’s the way a safety car works, always has been. Some win, some loose and like I said earlier, Lewis has benefited massively from a red flag earlier in the season. Lewis had an 11s gap so if he had pitted when the safety car was deployed, he would have likely got out in the lead.

As for Horner influencing the stewards, did you miss the bit where Wolfe told Masai not to bring out a safety car? They all badger Masi over the radio and that needs to stop.

 

[BuckMalanoma]

Interesting to me as someone who isn't a major F1 fan and has no loyalties either way is there doesn't seem to be a right answer to this. Lewis fans wanted to finish behind the safety car and not race or alternatively red flag and start again which would give Hamilton the advantage as he has the faster car. Max fans felt the F1 title decider should finish as a race and so the race director was right to do what was necessary for that to happen. Had all cars unlapped themselves and the race had a full lap Max would have won as he was on fresher tires. For what it's worth I dont know the right answer as had it finished under a safety car that would have been a waste. It needed to finish in a race but that's impossible to do without Max or Lewis being given an advantage.

Side note to this I watched this on sky and then highlights on channel 4 and Martin Brundle, Mark Webber, Jenson Button and David Coultard all felt Hamilton should have given the place back to Verstappen at turn 6.

 

[Knibbsworth]

Side note to this I watched this on sky and then highlights on channel 4 and Martin Brundle, Mark Webber, Jenson Button and David Coultard all felt Hamilton should have given the place back to Verstappen at turn 6.

The turn where Verstappen forced him off the road? Literally, where is Hamilton meant to go from there?

If Hamilton doesn't do what he did, there's a crash. It was such dangerous driving from Max.

I have no idea why the onus is on Lewis to give up the lead for aggressive driving like that. You can't just have the race lead for barging in like that.

There's an art to overtaking and that wasn't it. Verstappen didn't even stay on the track himself, and the line was nowhere near natural.

 

[GreenThing]

Max didn’t run off the track, he caught Lewis by surprise and managed to slow it down enough to make the apex and keep it within track limits. Danny Ric does that sort of move and everyone says how great he is on the brakes.

 

[Knibbsworth]

Max didn’t run off the track, he caught Lewis by surprise and managed to slow it down enough to make the apex and keep it within track limits. Danny Ric does that sort of move and everyone says how great he is on the brakes.

"Caught him by surprise". 🤣

Where is Hamilton meant to go after that manoeuvre?

Only by an emergency stop can Hamilton avoid a collision, unless he does what he did and drifts off the track to avoid a smash up.

It isn't racing, it's barging in, driving aggressively and risking a collision (which suited Max but not Lewis).

Why should Lewis have to concede his top place after that daft piece of driving? That's ridiculous.

 

[Clarke B]

I love the fact that the newbies to watching F1 are complaining about the safety car bunching the cars up - the safety car has only been around since the early 70's. Only 1 death since Imola 94 shows that has contributed massively to the safety despite the rising straight line and cornering speeds.

I also felt Max deserved it over the season, Hamilton was so much more lucky and benefited from 2 red flags (Silverstone and Imola) which he got 1st and 2nd. So on that - I actually thought the last lap was brilliant and hilarious in equal measure

Oh and there are various videos of Toto Wolff hammered and crowded surfing at an Abu Dhabi Mercedes after party which is pretty disrespectful to Hamilton!

 

[Ade the green]

Interesting to me as someone who isn't a major F1 fan and has no loyalties either way is there doesn't seem to be a right answer to this. Lewis fans wanted to finish behind the safety car and not race or alternatively red flag and start again which would give Hamilton the advantage as he has the faster car. Max fans felt the F1 title decider should finish as a race and so the race director was right to do what was necessary for that to happen. Had all cars unlapped themselves and the race had a full lap Max would have won as he was on fresher tires. For what it's worth I dont know the right answer as had it finished under a safety car that would have been a waste. It needed to finish in a race but that's impossible to do without Max or Lewis being given an advantage.

Side note to this I watched this on sky and then highlights on channel 4 and Martin Brundle, Mark Webber, Jenson Button and David Coultard all felt Hamilton should have given the place back to Verstappen at turn 6.

To be fair, there was a race and in 53 laps Verstappen was nowhere near Hamilton. Had the race been red flagged three laps earlier to give the impression of a fair race of course Hamilton would have won but as for saying he had the faster car doesn’t do justice to Hamilton skill at getting the best out of it. Bottas has a pretty much identical car and through set up and driving ability has done nothing with it.
I just keep coming back to the same thought. How can the race be 95% over and in order to rectify the result they had to get everyone out of Verstappen’s way before they started racing again?
I’ll say this as well. If Verstappen on brand new soft rubber instead of 40 lap old hard rubber needed to have everything set up by Masi it does not bode well for the so called 15 years of Red Bull dominance.
My own feeling is that SLH should come out and announce that Verstappen won and ask Mercedes to end the legal appeals. It starts again in 90 days and SLH and Mercedes have been suitably warned about what to expect next season even after Masi gets sacked.
Also, all the drivers you say expected Hamilton to give back the place, that’s wrong. Masi in this instance suggested to RB the the time that SLH was in front of Verstappen had been regained. The drivers you talk about suggested that SLH was very much further down the road than he was before.

 

[Greenblooded1]

The rules states that all, or none of the lapped cars should be allowed to overtake.
When F1 was bought by the US, they added a rule "to make F1 more entertaining", that the Race Director, can over rule any F1 rule.
I was there at Brands Hatch when James hunt was disqualified from the British Grand Prix for re-entering the pits between race starts & threw my drink on the track like everyone else, cheered when he was re-stated and went on to win. When he was disqualified the following day, I understood that we had a great day out, but knew rules need to be followed. That's sport.
When someone can simply override rules for entertainment, sport loses.
Hamilton on worn tyres had to overtake those back markers and still keep the lead. Verstappen couldn't, was allowed a tyre change and then had the back markers removed, with only 1 lap to complete. That's not sport.
It's a credit to Hamilton he kept his composure when so obviously cheated. I would be seriously considering my future if were him, why risk my life, when results can be manipulated for the sake of entertainment.
A complete disgrace.

 

[GreenThing]

The rule is not ‘all’ cars, it’s ‘any’ cars. That means that any car may be instructed to pass the safety car at the race directors discretion. It’s tough on Lewis, but as ClarkeB posted, it’s been the same since the safety car was introduced.

 

[Andy S]

So Horner "asked" Masi to allow the lapped cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to unlap themselves. This was refused and that was what was broadcast that NO cars would be permitted to unlap themselves.

Not two minutes later, Masi "changed his mind" and allowed JUST the cars between the two to go.

According to an article in The Grauniad (not my usual read), an International Arbitration Lawyer by the name of Duncan Bagshaw, of Howard Kennedy reckons that if Mercedes do appeal and go to court, there will only be one winner...and it won't be Red Bull Racing!

He is adamant that the rule which quite clearly states "ANY cars that have been lapped by the leaders HAVE to be allowed to pass the leading cars and the Safety Car before the race is restarted".

You know Keith, as well as I do that ANY means ALL. There has never, since the Safety Car era began been a race where only 5 cars have been allowed to unlap themselves. Every single safety car, has always resulted in all of the cars unlapping themselves and the safety car going in at the end of the following lap. That's how it always has been and that's how it should have been on Sunday.

 

[GreenThing]

So where will it go if an appeal is made? You cannot penalise Max or Red Bull, they have done nothing wrong. You cannot declare the race finished a lap early, this can be done if the race is stopped and not able to be restarted, it wasn’t stopped and as we all saw, it was able to be restarted. That leaves the race to be declared null and void, in which case the title will still go to Max.

 

[Andy S]

Yes they can. I agree that it could go on for donkeys but there are some seriously damning conversations between Horner and Masi that are coming to light. And if, as you keep saying, Masi was making a correct call, please explain Nurburgring last season when Masi insisted that ALL cars passed the leaders and the safety car went in at the end of the following lap. 6 full laps. He knew exactly what the correct interpretation of the rules were. He chose to “change “ them after calls from Horner to only allow 5 cars through. Is that not corrupt? Or is that sporting in your eyes. If it is corrupt then the result has to be reversed.