F1 2021

[GreenThing]

It’s not a big stitch up conspiracy between Red Bull and FIA. I believe that Masi is struggling with the job and made some bad calls from a sporting point of view. It’s not just Horner who gets in his ear, Wolfe is equally as bad along with the rest of them.

 

[Andy S]

Sorry Keith but, imho, you're clutching at straws. You haven't answered my question either! If, after receiving calls from Horner, Masi chose to change the situation AFTER he had already stated that NO cars would pass, he then allows just the 5 cars through AND puts the safety car in a lap early, is that sporting? Or is it corrupt? Sporting/corrupt? Simple answer.

 

[Knibbsworth]

Yes they can. I agree that it could go on for donkeys but there are some seriously damning conversations between Horner and Masi that are coming to light. And if, as you keep saying, Masi was making a correct call, please explain Nurburgring last season when Masi insisted that ALL cars passed the leaders and the safety car went in at the end of the following lap. 6 full laps. He knew exactly what the correct interpretation of the rules were. He chose to “change “ them after calls from Horner to only allow 5 cars through. Is that not corrupt? Or is that sporting in your eyes. If it is corrupt then the result has to be reversed.

Corrupt is an extreme allegation.
I think there was overwhelming pressure to deliver the exhilarating finale and letting the race end with a safety car taking the chequered flag wasn't in anyone's interests (except Lewis Hamilton).
They made a decision based on the hundreds and hundreds of millions watching it worldwide. It wasn't just because Christian Horner told him to get it back on.

As for your post earlier about the legal side of things, I think it is optimistic to see the championship changing hands in the courtroom. I doubt Hamilton would want to win that way anyway. What an anti climax that would be.

It is an event that happened and will go down in history. It will divide opinion for decades to come. Verstappen's 2021 title victory will always have that little asterisk on it now - *controversially taken from Lewis Hamilton.

 

[GreenThing]

No point in going around in circles with this Andy. I think Lewis lost out on a safety car, something that happens frequently for someone. That it was for a winner takes all race just puts it all under scrutiny. I know feel different but like you posted earlier, agree to disagree 👍

Something I will put you straight on, though. I’m not a Max fan much more than I’m a Lewis fan. I tend to follow the drivers who I’d welcome around for a drink, Lando, Riccoardo and Vettel currently; Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen and Button in the past. I’m also not a Red Bull fan either, Williams and McLaren for me.

 

[Andy S]

Corrupt is an extreme allegation.
I think there was overwhelming pressure to deliver the exhilarating finale and letting the race end with a safety car taking the chequered flag wasn't in anyone's interests (except Lewis Hamilton).
They made a decision based on the hundreds and hundreds of millions watching it worldwide. It wasn't just because Christian Horner told him to get it back on.

As for your post earlier about the legal side of things, I think it is optimistic to see the championship changing hands in the courtroom. I doubt Hamilton would want to win that way anyway. What an anti climax that would be.

It is an event that happened and will go down in history. It will divide opinion for decades to come. Verstappen's 2021 title victory will always have that little asterisk on it now - *controversially taken from Lewis Hamilton.

Well that's easy then...ditch the rule book. Don't bother with any of the rules that have been in place, and evolved, over decades. Rules that are made for DRIVER safety.

Just give the viewing public what stewards/race director THINK they want to see.

 

[Andy S]

No point in going around in circles with this Andy. I think Lewis lost out on a safety car, something that happens frequently for someone. That it was for a winner takes all race just puts it all under scrutiny. I know feel different but like you posted earlier, agree to disagree 👍

Something I will put you straight on, though. I’m not a Max fan much more than I’m a Lewis fan. I tend to follow the drivers who I’d welcome around for a drink, Lando, Riccoardo and Vettel currently; Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen and Button in the past. I’m also not a Red Bull fan either, Williams and McLaren for me.

Hey, I'm not Hamilton's greatest fan either but I despise corruption. I also have a decided dislike of all things Red Bull. There is controversy in everything that they are involved with. Americas Cup - San Fransisco, F1, V8 Supercars. Despicable organisation.

Yep, we'll agree to disagree, not a problem and I was never going to fall out with you over it!

As for Coulthard throwing in his twopenneth, I take anything that he has to say with a whole salt mine!! He is PAID by RBR to drive the rich and famous around tracks in the two seater car.

 

[GreenThing]

I’ve just found out that the only team to score a 1-2 finish is McLaren! Thinking about it , Merc and Red Bull have sacrificed their second driver’s race on occasions to interfere with the opposition, but it’s still a bit of a surprise.

 

[Andy S]

That thought had crossed my mind! When Hamilton was storming off into the distance, with 10 or 11 laps left and Verstappen wasn't even scratching the surface, I expected to see Perez dropping back through the cars with a "problem" that would miraculously have righted itself just as Hamilton hove into view!

 

[Knibbsworth]

Well that's easy then...ditch the rule book. Don't bother with any of the rules that have been in place, and evolved, over decades. Rules that are made for DRIVER safety.

Just give the viewing public what stewards/race director THINK they want to see.

Why is it corruption though?

Surely you can see everyone except Mercedes wanted to see them battle for the title, not to see the race fade away under a safety car. That was the pressure on Masi, the eyes of the world were on the race and he had to make the decision.

It's like Argyle being on the end of a horrendous penalty decision which loses us a playoff final, and then accusing the FA and EFL of corruption. A disputable decision doesn't necessarily = corrupt.

 

[Pogleswoody]

Why is it corruption though?

Surely you can see everyone except Mercedes wanted to see them battle for the title, not to see the race fade away under a safety car. That was the pressure on Masi, the eyes of the world were on the race and he had to make the decision.

It's like Argyle being on the end of a horrendous penalty decision which loses us a playoff final, and then accusing the FA and EFL of corruption. A disputable decision doesn't necessarily = corrupt.

Hamilton was 12+ seconds ahead, 5 racing cars between them. Hamilton stayed out on tyres. Verstappen had new softs.
So 'racing' is to lose the time gap, lose the cars that Verstappen needed to pass, put Verstappen immediately behind Hamilton on soft tyres and give him a free lap of open air to pass a slower car?

That is sporting endeavour at it's finest!

 

[GreenThing]

Hamilton was 12+ seconds ahead, 5 racing cars between them. Hamilton stayed out on tyres. Verstappen had new softs.
So 'racing' is to lose the time gap, lose the cars that Verstappen needed to pass, put Verstappen immediately behind Hamilton on soft tyres and give him a free lap of open air to pass a slower car?

That is sporting endeavour at it's finest!

That happens with a safety car, has done ever since the safety car was introduced. Plenty of drivers have had their race changed for good and bad in the past. Lewis regained a whole lap and was able to get his car repaired at Imola as a result of a red flag, which led to a podium finishes when he had no chance of any points. Fisichella also won a race due to a red flag when his car was buried in the tyre wall!

Loosing your time advantage when a safety car is deployed is nothing new and the teams use that to their advantage as part of tactics. During the race on Sunday, Lewis and his engineer were on the radio discussing what tyres to put on if they did an extra stop due to a safety car, in the event they decided not to pit while Red Bull did.

Lewis won at Silverstone last year (or maybe the previous year) as the safety car came out after other cars had made their stops, this enabled Lewis to pit and rejoin in the lead and to go on to win. He’s won before with safety cars and this time he lost out. It’s unfortunate for Lewis, but it happens.

 

[Pogleswoody]

That happens with a safety car, has done ever since the safety car was introduced. Plenty of drivers have had their race changed for good and bad in the past. Lewis regained a whole lap and was able to get his car repaired at Imola as a result of a red flag, which led to a podium finishes when he had no chance of any points. Fisichella also won a race due to a red flag when his car was buried in the tyre wall!

Loosing your time advantage when a safety car is deployed is nothing new and the teams use that to their advantage as part of tactics. During the race on Sunday, Lewis and his engineer were on the radio discussing what tyres to put on if they did an extra stop due to a safety car, in the event they decided not to pit while Red Bull did.

Lewis won at Silverstone last year (or maybe the previous year) as the safety car came out after other cars had made their stops, this enabled Lewis to pit and rejoin in the lead and to go on to win. He’s won before with safety cars and this time he lost out. It’s unfortunate for Lewis, but it happens.

Yes I understand Greeny.
But the Director described it as done for a 'racing' finish. He couldn't do that and be fair to all so maybe just follow the actual rules in future?
I'm a 'newbie' to F1.
Though I remember watching Mike Hawthorn beating Stirling Moss but that was in B&W so doesn't really count!

 

[GreenThing]

Yes I understand Greeny.
But the Director described it as done for a 'racing' finish. He couldn't do that and be fair to all so maybe just follow the actual rules in future?
I'm a 'newbie' to F1.
Though I remember watching Mike Hawthorn beating Stirling Moss but that was in B&W so doesn't really count!

Before the race all teams agreed to try to finish the race under racing conditions, which the Race Director did. The regulations allow for this as stated in the statement from the FIA.

 

[GreenThing]

Also, if Lewis didn’t have 18pts gifted to him by the red flag at Imola, the safety car on Sunday would have been irrelevant as 2nd would have been enough.

 

[Knibbsworth]

Hamilton was 12+ seconds ahead, 5 racing cars between them. Hamilton stayed out on tyres. Verstappen had new softs.
So 'racing' is to lose the time gap, lose the cars that Verstappen needed to pass, put Verstappen immediately behind Hamilton on soft tyres and give him a free lap of open air to pass a slower car?

That is sporting endeavour at it's finest!

None of that was Masi's fault. The safety car has always bunched together cars that were spread apart prior to a crash, that's nothing new.
Masi never influenced Mercedes' one stop strategy. They may have given Red Bull some inside info to change their tyres after Latifi's crash.
Is there any proof Masi gave Red Bull exclusive information? Not that I've heard of.
The crash changed everything, suddenly vindicated Red Bull's multiple stop strategy and ruined Hamilton for his one stop and worn tyres.
It is desperately unlucky and unfair on Hamilton who was cruising to a title, but it isn't evidence of corruption.