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GreenThing

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The rules need changing, and probably will be. A rookie driver crashes and spoils the Championship finale. Whether it’s Verstappen or Hamilton, neither should have their efforts denied by something not in their control. Masi got it wrong. You can’t make the rules up to make it more exciting.

Mercedes actually played it right and Hamiltons tyres would have seen out the race.

In Imola, Lewis was a lap down with a damaged car. A red flag allowed him to get his car fixed and more important, start on the lead lap. He managed to race through to second in a race where he would have got nothing, all because of the red flag.

Red flags and safety cars change races. Some you win, some you loose. Mercedes had the option of pitting Lewis but didn’t to gamble on the race finishing behind the safety car, it didn’t work out.
 
Jun 28, 2006
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In Imola, Lewis was a lap down with a damaged car. A red flag allowed him to get his car fixed and more important, start on the lead lap. He managed to race through to second in a race where he would have got nothing, all because of the red flag.

Red flags and safety cars change races. Some you win, some you loose. Mercedes had the option of pitting Lewis but didn’t to gamble on the race finishing behind the safety car, it didn’t work out.
I’m not questioning that👍

The point we’ve been discussing at home is the implementation of the rules.

The stewards have since highlighted that the race director can change things to suit the race. This has changed everything.

Im happy that Lewis has a great challenger, im just annoyed that it’s been decided in this manner.
 
Jun 28, 2006
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Also a red flag here would have handed the initiative to Mercedes on a scrubbed set of soft tyres for eight laps. Masi chose not call it to which plays into the hands of the conspiracy theorists.
 

GreenThing

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There was no need for a red flag, it was an incident that was able to be cleared up under a safety car. Having now seen the outcome of the appeal, the race director made all decisions within the rules and it has also emerged that all teams agreed beforehand that if there was a late safety car, all efforts to get the race finished under green flags would be taken.

It’s a shame for Lewis that he lost it in such a manner, but it was their call whether to pit or not. They have benefited from timely safety cars plenty of times. The only sour taste this leaves for me is that Merc cannot accept their bad luck gracefully.
 

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FIA rulings.
 

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Ted

Dec 8, 2003
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FIA have had a stinker.
Its a hollow win for Verstappen and if reversed a hollow win for Hamilton.

Nobody wins!

I think the issue is not how they decided to end it as they did, but more that they decided to change their mind on how to end it.
It really was a gift to RB.

I like Max but he is dangerous, I'm hoping with the pressure off now he calms down like Hamilton did in his younger years.
 
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Andy S

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Charlie Whiting will be turning in his grave. Disgusting decision by Masi.
 
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(Alert - this is a bit of an essay - and also gets a little soppy in places. I apologise in advance.)

Without wishing to appear like some mystical prophet, I just sensed that after the first race of the season that this was gonna be a season to remember. I had a proper grin on my face after Bahrain, because, it seemed like we could well have ourselves a real championship battle between the 2 best drivers, in the 2 best cars, with barely anything between them.

Yes, it hasn't ended perfectly. I hoped that once the flag fell that we'd have absolute certainty over who the champion was and who wasn't, but it seems that Mercedes are intent on appealing again after their original appeal was thrown out. It's frustrating how they and Red Bull have behaved at times this year, perhaps not helped by the stewards and inconsistent decisions. But maybe that's just the way this sport is - looking back through history at some of the very questionable decisions made which affected titles (I'm thinking 1989, 1990 and 1994), it's an inevitability of it.

The race director and the stewards have a nightmarish job. The rulebook is colossal, and even then, (enforced by the nature of the sport where no two incidents are ever quite the same and so many variables can be in play), the rules can be interpreted a number of different ways. From the most trivial thing such as giving Robert Kubica a black and orange flag at Monza in 2009 (yes, I know I'm a massive sado for remembering that) right up to this evening's incident, it can be endlessly argued as to how the rules should be interpreted. However, something needs to change. I'm not quite sure what, but we surely can't have this level of uncertainty and "winging it" with the rules so many times as has been the case in recent races. Hopefully brains more clever than myself can figure out a solution and us fans can enjoy the racing with a little more clarity as to what is allowable and what isn't on the racetrack.

To focus on tonight's incidents: firstly, the lap 1 incident. I think they were correct to say that Lewis was forced off track by Max - I get Martin Brundle's viewpoint, but it was such a divebomb from Max that there surely comes a point where the guy getting passed is allowed to try and take the corner rather than jump out of the way. What I don't get is that the stewards said that Lewis had no lasting advantage - didn't look like he dropped back close enough to Max again to me.

The decision to bring out the safety car for the Latifi crash - spot on. It wasn't serious enough for a red flag, but was too serious for a VSC. Max "passing" Lewis just before the restart - again, don't see an issue here, it's not as if it affected anything. The contentious issue is obviously the "lapped cars" matter. I applaud Michael Masi for trying to get the race restarted in time - at the end of the day, provided that it is safe to do so, we want to see racing laps and not safety car laps. Brundle has commented in the past (and I totally agree with him) that it is a daft rule that not only do the lapped cars get to unlap themselves, but also catch the back of the pack as well. But the decision to only let some of the lapped cars go was a mess. They should have done it earlier on lap 57 to allow all of the lapped cars to go through and get out of the way. However, this is an error by the race director and not Red Bull, so I don't see how they or Max can be punished for it. Sure, they may have applied pressured to get the decision overturned, but Toto Wolff did exactly the same earlier in the race demanding that a full SC wasn't thrown.

As I said, it's a real shame that we still don't fully know who the champion is. But I'll let that slide. Because, as I've said recently (and tonight has cemented it), I have been watching Formula 1 for over 20 years, and that is the best championship I have seen BY FAR. No contest. I struggle to see how any title battle from years gone by can rival it either, although of course I can't definitively say that given that I couldn't watch all the races. But for competition, rivalry, drama and sheer sporting theatre, that was colossal. Epic. F**king magnificent. Not only have these two great drivers been involved in sensational wheel to wheel battles/incidents in Bahrain, Silverstone, Monza, Brazil Saudi Arabia and UAE (6 races!), there was also Imola, Portugal, Spain and France where they were side by side for the lead. Almost half the races in the season where we have had a memorable moment between the two - and where you compare that with other rivalries from seasons gone by, it blows them all out of the water.

Tied on points going into the last race, and a championship lead that changed hands on the very last lap of the season! Yes, 2008 did that as well, but for drama throughout the season rather than just in the final race, 2021 easily trumps it. I think that I barely drew breath in those final two minutes - as I said, pure sporting drama at it's finest.

You have to be patient as an F1 fan sometimes. Sitting through seasons where one team/driver is utterly dominant is so frustrating. But again - that's the nature of the beast. Any ridiculous fabricated rules to try and "force" the drama is tacky and would make me lose interest (such as reverse grids or the utter drivel that is the Formula E "fan boost"). Sometimes, it could be argued that F1 strays a little too close to that line (such as DRS, plus (arguably) tonight's actions from the stewards (although I personally disagree - I think it was an error rather than a "forcing or drama")). However, on the whole, it stays clear of it. Therefore, some years, a driver or team will dominate - and that's fine.

That said, the near-decade of Mercedes dominance was becoming frustrating to watch. We needed some competition. We needed a team and driver to rise to the challenge and bring them down. Yes, Ferrari/Vettel got close a few times, but Merc/Hamilton always came out on top. Therefore, it's been so fantastic for the sport that Red Bull and Max brought it to them this year. It's not always been the cleanest of racing, and Saudi Arabia was bordering on silly, but generally, the battle has been everything I wanted - intense, closer than close on the stopwatch and impossible to call, right up until the last moment of the season.

That's why I love Formula 1. And in the future, I know that there will be more seasons where a driver dominates. There will be more seasons where questionable decisions are made and maybe even the future of the sport is thrown into doubt. But I hope it'll always be in a state where I love it as much as I do now.

I actually feel a bit down this evening now that it has finished. Because surely nothing will ever top that. I think I have just watched the greatest season of Formula 1 there has ever been. And maybe the greatest season that there ever will be.
 

Andy S

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(Alert - this is a bit of an essay - and also gets a little soppy in places. I apologise in advance.)

Without wishing to appear like some mystical prophet, I just sensed that after the first race of the season that this was gonna be a season to remember. I had a proper grin on my face after Bahrain, because, it seemed like we could well have ourselves a real championship battle between the 2 best drivers, in the 2 best cars, with barely anything between them.

Yes, it hasn't ended perfectly. I hoped that once the flag fell that we'd have absolute certainty over who the champion was and who wasn't, but it seems that Mercedes are intent on appealing again after their original appeal was thrown out. It's frustrating how they and Red Bull have behaved at times this year, perhaps not helped by the stewards and inconsistent decisions. But maybe that's just the way this sport is - looking back through history at some of the very questionable decisions made which affected titles (I'm thinking 1989, 1990 and 1994), it's an inevitability of it.

The race director and the stewards have a nightmarish job. The rulebook is colossal, and even then, (enforced by the nature of the sport where no two incidents are ever quite the same and so many variables can be in play), the rules can be interpreted a number of different ways. From the most trivial thing such as giving Robert Kubica a black and orange flag at Monza in 2009 (yes, I know I'm a massive sado for remembering that) right up to this evening's incident, it can be endlessly argued as to how the rules should be interpreted. However, something needs to change. I'm not quite sure what, but we surely can't have this level of uncertainty and "winging it" with the rules so many times as has been the case in recent races. Hopefully brains more clever than myself can figure out a solution and us fans can enjoy the racing with a little more clarity as to what is allowable and what isn't on the racetrack.

To focus on tonight's incidents: firstly, the lap 1 incident. I think they were correct to say that Lewis was forced off track by Max - I get Martin Brundle's viewpoint, but it was such a divebomb from Max that there surely comes a point where the guy getting passed is allowed to try and take the corner rather than jump out of the way. What I don't get is that the stewards said that Lewis had no lasting advantage - didn't look like he dropped back close enough to Max again to me.

The decision to bring out the safety car for the Latifi crash - spot on. It wasn't serious enough for a red flag, but was too serious for a VSC. Max "passing" Lewis just before the restart - again, don't see an issue here, it's not as if it affected anything. The contentious issue is obviously the "lapped cars" matter. I applaud Michael Masi for trying to get the race restarted in time - at the end of the day, provided that it is safe to do so, we want to see racing laps and not safety car laps. Brundle has commented in the past (and I totally agree with him) that it is a daft rule that not only do the lapped cars get to unlap themselves, but also catch the back of the pack as well. But the decision to only let some of the lapped cars go was a mess. They should have done it earlier on lap 57 to allow all of the lapped cars to go through and get out of the way. However, this is an error by the race director and not Red Bull, so I don't see how they or Max can be punished for it. Sure, they may have applied pressured to get the decision overturned, but Toto Wolff did exactly the same earlier in the race demanding that a full SC wasn't thrown.

As I said, it's a real shame that we still don't fully know who the champion is. But I'll let that slide. Because, as I've said recently (and tonight has cemented it), I have been watching Formula 1 for over 20 years, and that is the best championship I have seen BY FAR. No contest. I struggle to see how any title battle from years gone by can rival it either, although of course I can't definitively say that given that I couldn't watch all the races. But for competition, rivalry, drama and sheer sporting theatre, that was colossal. Epic. F**king magnificent. Not only have these two great drivers been involved in sensational wheel to wheel battles/incidents in Bahrain, Silverstone, Monza, Brazil Saudi Arabia and UAE (6 races!), there was also Imola, Portugal, Spain and France where they were side by side for the lead. Almost half the races in the season where we have had a memorable moment between the two - and where you compare that with other rivalries from seasons gone by, it blows them all out of the water.

Tied on points going into the last race, and a championship lead that changed hands on the very last lap of the season! Yes, 2008 did that as well, but for drama throughout the season rather than just in the final race, 2021 easily trumps it. I think that I barely drew breath in those final two minutes - as I said, pure sporting drama at it's finest.

You have to be patient as an F1 fan sometimes. Sitting through seasons where one team/driver is utterly dominant is so frustrating. But again - that's the nature of the beast. Any ridiculous fabricated rules to try and "force" the drama is tacky and would make me lose interest (such as reverse grids or the utter drivel that is the Formula E "fan boost"). Sometimes, it could be argued that F1 strays a little too close to that line (such as DRS, plus (arguably) tonight's actions from the stewards (although I personally disagree - I think it was an error rather than a "forcing or drama")). However, on the whole, it stays clear of it. Therefore, some years, a driver or team will dominate - and that's fine.

That said, the near-decade of Mercedes dominance was becoming frustrating to watch. We needed some competition. We needed a team and driver to rise to the challenge and bring them down. Yes, Ferrari/Vettel got close a few times, but Merc/Hamilton always came out on top. Therefore, it's been so fantastic for the sport that Red Bull and Max brought it to them this year. It's not always been the cleanest of racing, and Saudi Arabia was bordering on silly, but generally, the battle has been everything I wanted - intense, closer than close on the stopwatch and impossible to call, right up until the last moment of the season.

That's why I love Formula 1. And in the future, I know that there will be more seasons where a driver dominates. There will be more seasons where questionable decisions are made and maybe even the future of the sport is thrown into doubt. But I hope it'll always be in a state where I love it as much as I do now.

I actually feel a bit down this evening now that it has finished. Because surely nothing will ever top that. I think I have just watched the greatest season of Formula 1 there has ever been. And maybe the greatest season that there ever will be.
It has to be one of the most corrupt decisions ever to have been made in F1. Masi has proved time and time again that he favours one team over another.

His P45 should already be in the post.
 

Ted

Dec 8, 2003
1,545
332
Nottingham
One things for sure though, if Red Bull don't improve they will be left behind next year as in previous seasons.

Max not being able to close the gap on fresh tyres summed up how much quicker Lewis is.
 
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Jun 28, 2006
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875
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(Alert - this is a bit of an essay - and also gets a little soppy in places. I apologise in advance.)

Without wishing to appear like some mystical prophet, I just sensed that after the first race of the season that this was gonna be a season to remember. I had a proper grin on my face after Bahrain, because, it seemed like we could well have ourselves a real championship battle between the 2 best drivers, in the 2 best cars, with barely anything between them.

Yes, it hasn't ended perfectly. I hoped that once the flag fell that we'd have absolute certainty over who the champion was and who wasn't, but it seems that Mercedes are intent on appealing again after their original appeal was thrown out. It's frustrating how they and Red Bull have behaved at times this year, perhaps not helped by the stewards and inconsistent decisions. But maybe that's just the way this sport is - looking back through history at some of the very questionable decisions made which affected titles (I'm thinking 1989, 1990 and 1994), it's an inevitability of it.

The race director and the stewards have a nightmarish job. The rulebook is colossal, and even then, (enforced by the nature of the sport where no two incidents are ever quite the same and so many variables can be in play), the rules can be interpreted a number of different ways. From the most trivial thing such as giving Robert Kubica a black and orange flag at Monza in 2009 (yes, I know I'm a massive sado for remembering that) right up to this evening's incident, it can be endlessly argued as to how the rules should be interpreted. However, something needs to change. I'm not quite sure what, but we surely can't have this level of uncertainty and "winging it" with the rules so many times as has been the case in recent races. Hopefully brains more clever than myself can figure out a solution and us fans can enjoy the racing with a little more clarity as to what is allowable and what isn't on the racetrack.

To focus on tonight's incidents: firstly, the lap 1 incident. I think they were correct to say that Lewis was forced off track by Max - I get Martin Brundle's viewpoint, but it was such a divebomb from Max that there surely comes a point where the guy getting passed is allowed to try and take the corner rather than jump out of the way. What I don't get is that the stewards said that Lewis had no lasting advantage - didn't look like he dropped back close enough to Max again to me.

The decision to bring out the safety car for the Latifi crash - spot on. It wasn't serious enough for a red flag, but was too serious for a VSC. Max "passing" Lewis just before the restart - again, don't see an issue here, it's not as if it affected anything. The contentious issue is obviously the "lapped cars" matter. I applaud Michael Masi for trying to get the race restarted in time - at the end of the day, provided that it is safe to do so, we want to see racing laps and not safety car laps. Brundle has commented in the past (and I totally agree with him) that it is a daft rule that not only do the lapped cars get to unlap themselves, but also catch the back of the pack as well. But the decision to only let some of the lapped cars go was a mess. They should have done it earlier on lap 57 to allow all of the lapped cars to go through and get out of the way. However, this is an error by the race director and not Red Bull, so I don't see how they or Max can be punished for it. Sure, they may have applied pressured to get the decision overturned, but Toto Wolff did exactly the same earlier in the race demanding that a full SC wasn't thrown.

As I said, it's a real shame that we still don't fully know who the champion is. But I'll let that slide. Because, as I've said recently (and tonight has cemented it), I have been watching Formula 1 for over 20 years, and that is the best championship I have seen BY FAR. No contest. I struggle to see how any title battle from years gone by can rival it either, although of course I can't definitively say that given that I couldn't watch all the races. But for competition, rivalry, drama and sheer sporting theatre, that was colossal. Epic. F**king magnificent. Not only have these two great drivers been involved in sensational wheel to wheel battles/incidents in Bahrain, Silverstone, Monza, Brazil Saudi Arabia and UAE (6 races!), there was also Imola, Portugal, Spain and France where they were side by side for the lead. Almost half the races in the season where we have had a memorable moment between the two - and where you compare that with other rivalries from seasons gone by, it blows them all out of the water.

Tied on points going into the last race, and a championship lead that changed hands on the very last lap of the season! Yes, 2008 did that as well, but for drama throughout the season rather than just in the final race, 2021 easily trumps it. I think that I barely drew breath in those final two minutes - as I said, pure sporting drama at it's finest.

You have to be patient as an F1 fan sometimes. Sitting through seasons where one team/driver is utterly dominant is so frustrating. But again - that's the nature of the beast. Any ridiculous fabricated rules to try and "force" the drama is tacky and would make me lose interest (such as reverse grids or the utter drivel that is the Formula E "fan boost"). Sometimes, it could be argued that F1 strays a little too close to that line (such as DRS, plus (arguably) tonight's actions from the stewards (although I personally disagree - I think it was an error rather than a "forcing or drama")). However, on the whole, it stays clear of it. Therefore, some years, a driver or team will dominate - and that's fine.

That said, the near-decade of Mercedes dominance was becoming frustrating to watch. We needed some competition. We needed a team and driver to rise to the challenge and bring them down. Yes, Ferrari/Vettel got close a few times, but Merc/Hamilton always came out on top. Therefore, it's been so fantastic for the sport that Red Bull and Max brought it to them this year. It's not always been the cleanest of racing, and Saudi Arabia was bordering on silly, but generally, the battle has been everything I wanted - intense, closer than close on the stopwatch and impossible to call, right up until the last moment of the season.

That's why I love Formula 1. And in the future, I know that there will be more seasons where a driver dominates. There will be more seasons where questionable decisions are made and maybe even the future of the sport is thrown into doubt. But I hope it'll always be in a state where I love it as much as I do now.

I actually feel a bit down this evening now that it has finished. Because surely nothing will ever top that. I think I have just watched the greatest season of Formula 1 there has ever been. And maybe the greatest season that there ever will be.
I agree with all of that. However it feels like the FIA have been trying to disrupt Mercedes in the same way as the UCI & ASO have been trying to disrupt the Sky/Ineos domination. It’s not good for sponsorship and therefore financial gain.

I know that sentence probably seems ridiculous reading it back to myself.

This discussion will rumble on and will likely lead to yet more rule changes.
 

Andy S

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In Imola, Lewis was a lap down with a damaged car. A red flag allowed him to get his car fixed and more important, start on the lead lap. He managed to race through to second in a race where he would have got nothing, all because of the red flag.

Red flags and safety cars change races. Some you win, some you loose. Mercedes had the option of pitting Lewis but didn’t to gamble on the race finishing behind the safety car, it didn’t work out.
You can bet your sweet ass that it would have finished behind the safety car had the cloggie tw@ been in front!

Horner, over the Team radio "We need a miracle".

Masi "Hold my beer".
 

GreenThing

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I think your dislike of Max is clouding your judgement, Andy.

Whenever Max has got his elbows out, he has received a penalty for it, apart from Brazil which Lewis won anyway.

When they got together in Silverstone, Lewis’ fault, meaningless penalty given, Lewis gained 25pts over max.

Monza, Max’s fault but no gain for either and Max got a penalty at the following race.

Max tyre blew at Baku loosing him 25pts through no fault of his own. Lewis made a mistake at the restart so he lost points by his own mistake.

Hungary, Max taken out by Botas and raced with a heavily damaged car. Hamilton made a mistake and chose to start on wet tyres with a drying track, got 18pts after a bad call, while Max got minimal points through no fault of his own.

Imola, Max wins while Lewis goes off track and damages his car and is a lap down without any chance of points. Big accident involving Bottas brings out red flag. Lewis in a repaired car and reinstalled onto the lead lap gets 18pts.

Max wins Spa which is 2 laps behind safety car. His 7pts advantage for a win is only 3.5 due to half points, although he didn’t have to race for those points.

Overall, without the bad luck Max would have wrapped it up with a few races to spare. He had a bit of luck yesterday, but Hamilton has had quite a bit of luck all season. The championship is run over a 22 races, not just the last one and overall, Max deserved to win it.
 

GreenThing

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That's because they were assuming the rules would be followed by the race director.

They assumed that there wouldn’t be enough laps to restart the race. There’s a YouTube clip of all pit radio to Lewis from moments before the safety car was deployed to the restart. Merc got it wrong and Lewis questioned it immediately. They were shitting themselves over a full safety car, when the VSC was deployed earlier in the race Wolfe was on the radio telling Masi not to deploy full safety car, it’s not the job of a team principal to try to influence the deployment of safety cars.
 
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