England and Argyle . Twins .....

[Railway sleeper]

E Th OnI ly there to siove Brian Clough bgnt he's clearly off his face in that interview

Bill shankly was quoted as saying ( james Corbett's biography on shankly 2009):

' At a football club, theres a holy trinity - the players,the manager and the supporters.Directors dont come into it,They are only there to sign the cheques'

I think there is an 'executivisaion' of the management role- which can be seen through the recent trend towards a split role of director of football/ coach. This role seems to make experience and previous success in football management redundant.( unlike other professions where previous experience is highly valued).

The decreased importance of supporters as stakeholders, can be seen by more limited contact with supporters - no more tweeting or meeting supporters to sign autographs

Are these changes beneficial to the game ? Not in my view....

 

[unhinched]

Aye- it looks that way ?😀

Where have all the big characters gone in the modern game- the dave Smiths, ian Holloways, bill shanklys and brian cloughs ? 🤔

They are controlled beyond measure these days.
Sponsors / authorities etc dictate what a player or manager can do or say before falling foul - so they become experts of many words while saying very little.
Take the recent shirt controversy. They are media trained / controlled and probably told EXACTLY the perameters of what they can or can't say ( and maybe even given hints on how to diffuse things) and their contracts probably seal it in even more.
As Paul Weller sang ' Society gets what society wants' and because people not being offended is a massively high value in modern society no one says anything - in case it causes offence to one or more people.
Trouble is - we sometimes need to be offended to be the best people we can be. That's where Roy Keane came in as captain.
Look at Shanklys ( or Fergusons or Cloughs or Holloways) top ten quotes and see how many would be 'allowed' today.
Zlatan may have been the last one ever. To Rafael Van de Vart ,who accused him of purposely injuring him :
"I didn't injure you on purpose and you know that. If you accuse me again I'll break both your legs, and that time it will be on purpose."

 

[keithobro]

The simple answer is that Southgate's England have qualified "top" of their group in EVERY tournament qualifying group while he's been England Manager; I think Ramsey's England failed to reach the World Cup Finals in 1974 ...

I reckon all England Managers pit their wits against pretty much the same nations, they can only beat what's put in front of them; Ramsey maybe has more wins over Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia than Southgate ... GS is good, but he's doesn't have that level of magic.

It's all very well topping your qualifying group, but what significance does that have if you fail to win anything once you get there?

 

[keithobro]

Lampard rarely played well for England. Scholes did at times, but was often played out wide, which did not suit him at all

Lampard was often paired with Gerrard in cmf, when both played a similar game, wanting to get forward. Neither was very good at dmf, so we were often wide open in cmf. That Scholes was played out of position is another example of how successive England managers have imposed too rigid a formation upon talented players and stifled their creativity. The same seems to be happening with Foden at the moment IMO.

 

[keithobro]

That's how I see it. I'm not anti Southgate, after Roy Hodgsons awful stint as manager and Big Sam's debacle he was just what we needed at the time and has done a good job on the whole.
He's just lacked that conviction and killer instinct needed to get a trophy in the cabinet. The Italy and Croatia games proved that.

Plus twice against Belgium - once in the finals group and then in the knockout stages.

 

[Hargyle]

It's all very well topping your qualifying group, but what significance does that have if you fail to win anything once you get there?

A valid question Keith ... if you're asking because you want to know, here are the stats that you're looking for ...

Southgate has the best record of any England Manager in both Euros and World Cup tournaments. He has more wins in major tournaments than any other England Manager; three more than Alf Ramsey, who's 2nd on the list. He also has the longest unbeaten run of any other England Manager (22 games). As stated previously, Southgate's England have qualified top of their group in every World Cup and Euro's qualifiers whenever Southgate has been manager; which in turn, makes Southgate the most successful England Manager in all qualifiers ... he also has the best goals for/against ratio of any England Manager in qualifiers.

Take Sam Allardyce (1 game/1 win) out of the equation, and since Alf Ramsey, Southgate has the most wins of any England Manager in qualifying, the most wins of any England Manager actually at major tournaments, the highest percentage of wins at major tournaments, the highest percentage of wins in all qualifiers, the most goals scored at major tournaments, the least goals per game scored against England at major tournaments, the best points per game ratio of any England Manager at major tournaments, and the most wins at all major tournaments combined.

There are loads and loads more stats out there, just get lost in a Google search for 20 minutes, to support the fact that Southgate is a top International Manager. The IFFHS (look it up) does a "Manager of the Decade" list, based on all stats (wins, goals, etc) every decade, and in their last list (2010 - 2020) Southgate game joint 9th in the World; and he wasn't even England Manger for the first half of the decade ... that's a list which included Joachim Low, Deschamps, Del Bosque, etc ... only two other England Managers had ever got into the top 10 previously.

Also, I just find Southgate, as a man, so refreshing to some of the garbage that we've had to put up with before ... Sven, Capello, Big Sam, McClaren, Wilkinson, Hodgson, Revie, Mercer ... and all the wannabees who have been touted as Southgate's successor over the last few years ... Mourinho (shudder), Potter, Lampard, Gerard, even Sarina flippin Wiegman is rated as tenth favourite for the job if Southgate steps down this summer ...

... be very very careful what you wish for with England Managers!!!

 

[Gary S]

They are controlled beyond measure these days.
Sponsors / authorities etc dictate what a player or manager can do or say before falling foul - so they become experts of many words while saying very little.
Take the recent shirt controversy. They are media trained / controlled and probably told EXACTLY the perameters of what they can or can't say ( and maybe even given hints on how to diffuse things) and their contracts probably seal it in even more.
As Paul Weller sang ' Society gets what society wants' and because people not being offended is a massively high value in modern society no one says anything - in case it causes offence to one or more people.
Trouble is - we sometimes need to be offended to be the best people we can be. That's where Roy Keane came in as captain.
Look at Shanklys ( or Fergusons or Cloughs or Holloways) top ten quotes and see how many would be 'allowed' today.
Zlatan may have been the last one ever. To Rafael Van de Vart ,who accused him of purposely injuring him :
"I didn't injure you on purpose and you know that. If you accuse me again I'll break both your legs, and that time it will be on purpose."

Twas "the public gets what the public wants, but I want nothing this society's got".

Weller was an amazing lyricist, especially considering his youth in the Jam's heyday.

 

[German Shepherd]

A valid question Keith ... if you're asking because you want to know, here are the stats that you're looking for ...

Southgate has the best record of any England Manager in both Euros and World Cup tournaments. He has more wins in major tournaments than any other England Manager; three more than Alf Ramsey, who's 2nd on the list. He also has the longest unbeaten run of any other England Manager (22 games). As stated previously, Southgate's England have qualified top of their group in every World Cup and Euro's qualifiers whenever Southgate has been manager; which in turn, makes Southgate the most successful England Manager in all qualifiers ... he also has the best goals for/against ratio of any England Manager in qualifiers.

Take Sam Allardyce (1 game/1 win) out of the equation, and since Alf Ramsey, Southgate has the most wins of any England Manager in qualifying, the most wins of any England Manager actually at major tournaments, the highest percentage of wins at major tournaments, the highest percentage of wins in all qualifiers, the most goals scored at major tournaments, the least goals per game scored against England at major tournaments, the best points per game ratio of any England Manager at major tournaments, and the most wins at all major tournaments combined.

There are loads and loads more stats out there, just get lost in a Google search for 20 minutes, to support the fact that Southgate is a top International Manager. The IFFHS (look it up) does a "Manager of the Decade" list, based on all stats (wins, goals, etc) every decade, and in their last list (2010 - 2020) Southgate game joint 9th in the World; and he wasn't even England Manger for the first half of the decade ... that's a list which included Joachim Low, Deschamps, Del Bosque, etc ... only two other England Managers had ever got into the top 10 previously.

Also, I just find Southgate, as a man, so refreshing to some of the garbage that we've had to put up with before ... Sven, Capello, Big Sam, McClaren, Wilkinson, Hodgson, Revie, Mercer ... and all the wannabees who have been touted as Southgate's successor over the last few years ... Mourinho (shudder), Potter, Lampard, Gerard, even Sarina flippin Wiegman is rated as tenth favourite for the job if Southgate steps down this summer ...

... be very very careful what you wish for with England Managers!!!

What's wrong with Sarina Wiegman ? The England women"s football team plays far more attacking football than the men's under Southgate .

I'd have her as Argyle manager.

 

[WoodsyGreen]

What's wrong with Sarina Wiegman ? The England women"s football team plays far more attacking football than the men's under Southgate .

I'd have her as Argyle manager.

She coaches a women's team and there's little to no evidence that female coaches can make the step across to the men's game. Probably best not to use our national team as a test case.

 

[loyal1970]

Must admit I was bored as hell again. With that crop of players, we should be smashing teams.

A better manager/coach would get more out of that talented bunch of players Southgate has only kept the England job because he is a yes man ok he got to a semi final and final but he f....d that up.

 

[santos73]

World Cup semi-Finalists and Euro Runners-up and its still not good enough!!
All I can think is that you didn't see the 'Golden Generation' wasted by successive managers

 

[Lancastergreen]

A valid question Keith ... if you're asking because you want to know, here are the stats that you're looking for ...

Southgate has the best record of any England Manager in both Euros and World Cup tournaments. He has more wins in major tournaments than any other England Manager; three more than Alf Ramsey, who's 2nd on the list. He also has the longest unbeaten run of any other England Manager (22 games). As stated previously, Southgate's England have qualified top of their group in every World Cup and Euro's qualifiers whenever Southgate has been manager; which in turn, makes Southgate the most successful England Manager in all qualifiers ... he also has the best goals for/against ratio of any England Manager in qualifiers.

Take Sam Allardyce (1 game/1 win) out of the equation, and since Alf Ramsey, Southgate has the most wins of any England Manager in qualifying, the most wins of any England Manager actually at major tournaments, the highest percentage of wins at major tournaments, the highest percentage of wins in all qualifiers, the most goals scored at major tournaments, the least goals per game scored against England at major tournaments, the best points per game ratio of any England Manager at major tournaments, and the most wins at all major tournaments combined.

There are loads and loads more stats out there, just get lost in a Google search for 20 minutes, to support the fact that Southgate is a top International Manager. The IFFHS (look it up) does a "Manager of the Decade" list, based on all stats (wins, goals, etc) every decade, and in their last list (2010 - 2020) Southgate game joint 9th in the World; and he wasn't even England Manger for the first half of the decade ... that's a list which included Joachim Low, Deschamps, Del Bosque, etc ... only two other England Managers had ever got into the top 10 previously.

Also, I just find Southgate, as a man, so refreshing to some of the garbage that we've had to put up with before ... Sven, Capello, Big Sam, McClaren, Wilkinson, Hodgson, Revie, Mercer ... and all the wannabees who have been touted as Southgate's successor over the last few years ... Mourinho (shudder), Potter, Lampard, Gerard, even Sarina flippin Wiegman is rated as tenth favourite for the job if Southgate steps down this summer ...

... be very very careful what you wish for with England Managers!!!

Now take out all of the cannon fodder from this list of achievements what are we left with stats wise?
Its literally no surprise or achievement to be beating teams by 5 plus goals when they have only a few thousand on their little island.
It would be interesting to see how they fair in qualification against lets says Spain, Germany, France, Holland. Italy, Brazil, Argentina.... I know they dont mix South american teams but it would be a better indicator as to how great Southgate is.

 

[Balham Green]

A better manager/coach would get more out of that talented bunch of players Southgate has only kept the England job because he is a yes man ok he got to a semi final and final but he f....d that up.

Oh yeah he got us to a semi and a final. But apart from that what did he do?!!

 

[Jon with no H]

Now take out all of the cannon fodder from this list of achievements what are we left with stats wise?
Its literally no surprise or achievement to be beating teams by 5 plus goals when they have only a few thousand on their little island.
It would be interesting to see how they fair in qualification against lets says Spain, Germany, France, Holland. Italy, Brazil, Argentina.... I know they dont mix South american teams but it would be a better indicator as to how great Southgate is.

Surely that's what the tournament at the end tells us. At some point we have to consider what is actually possible from our own little island, given how many other managers have had the job and not done as well as Southgate.

I only really started paying attention to England games in Italia 90, so I don't remember who was in charge before Sir Bobby Robson, but I thought getting to the last 4 there wasn't bad. His career showed he knew what he was doing.

The less said about the following guy the better, then Terry Venables had a good showing at Euro '96. Glenn Hoddle, one of the more tactically astute managers we've had in this country didn't really accomplish a great deal. Keegan likewise (accomplishments wise, not tactically!).

Sven was a broken Rooney metatarsal away from having a really good chance at Euro 2004, then we had a guy who won everything in club football in Capello and didn't even make a dent with England, but across my time of watching England, now is as good as we have had it. Especially compared to the two managers before Southgate.

 

[PL2 3DQ]

I think under Southgate and Foster their teams' results isn't too shabby, Foster's results are on par with Schumacher but what concerns many England and Argyle fans is the dull and risk averse style of play, especially when having several good attacking players at their disposal.

With Foster this is highlighted even more because Argyle have gone from an attacking and entertaining team to a borefest almost overnight, especially in home games.