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Simon Hallett's sliding doors moment

Jon with no H

🚑 Steve Hooper
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Great OP. I think many people under-estimated the financial gulf we faced when we entered the Championship. This is surprising as it was evident last time we were there and has only got bigger since then.

I like SH's focus upon long term planning and trying to build the club off the pitch. This seems an essential response as focusing overly on staying up season by season is a sure way to waste whatever resources we have or end up in a pile of debt while sacrificing longer term progress. This is largely what happened last time after we had shot our bolt during the Holloway era.

I am worried that our ability to "outsmart", use data or earn money from developing and selling players has been overstated. Maybe SH bought into that a bit too much initially. This seems to be reflected in a clearer recognition of the need to get additional investment now and I think plans going forward should be better informed. This may be a positive. I also think many (yes not all) fans have become more realistic about the financial situation.

Maybe I will feel better about generating income from sales when we actually do this. For now it still feels a bit nebulous although this could say more about my pessimism than the value of our playing assets.
I've always taken the idea of outsmarting as a plan to reach parity with other teams rather than run rings round them. It just means looking under more rocks than everyone else, or a different set of rocks that other teams aren't prepared to look under in the first place.

At the same time, there is no getting away from the fact there are other teams, even some of those in the final 5 around us at the moment with far bigger budgets, and it's difficult to imagine that every single person making decisions at those clubs is either a lunatic or a moron (there are clearly some who might be one or the other).
 
Jul 24, 2009
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Good opening post. I am not sure I agree that relegation would be anything other than a significant setback for the club. I trust SH to do what is best for the club, he has a far better chance of doing that if we are in the Championship because I think he will have more options and more potential investors will be interested. I'm fairly sure he alluded to that in some of his recent comments. I take the point about learning from this year and not just going again with the same formula next year but it is not simply the case we go down and we reset, we stay up and we don't. We can reset this summer in the Championship and be more like mid table next year. We can go down and struggle in League One.

I agree with the sliding doors analogy, the thing is you only really know for sure those moments in retrospect. I do think these last two games and staying up is huge for Argyle. If we go down the world won't stop, we will be onto a new challenge, presumably we will sell Morgan and therefore be in far better shape than we were 24 months earlier financially. But I can't help thinking it is a big deal for our club, Simon Hallett and the options he and we have whether we stay up this year or not.
 

Frank Butcher

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✨Pasoti Donor✨
Oct 9, 2003
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So my reply was in response to Cobi & how he felt about what he said.

Regarding social media it's not l am telling people how they should be thinking. I am saying more about a lack of general respect to the way people talk to each other. I have often said this place would be boring if we all thought the same.

My point isn't about freedom of speech though. It's about a person conduct when using a social media platform. Say what you like but put it in a way where you aren't rude or nasty to people. And that was my point on the first page regarding this conversation. Say what you like about the team, players & chairman. Just do it by sticking to football & don't do it in a way where it gets personal. Where it then turns into an emotional rant. Freedom of speech is not an excuse to be rude or spiteful which many think it is. Its is not an excuse to think you can say anything you like because otherwise without any consequences to what we say then your just creating a toxic environment.

A perfect example of this is the conduct shown by people on twitter / X.

Freedom of thought, not freedom of speech - important distinction.

Anyway, will leave it there.
 
Feb 13, 2021
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I wasn't sure whether to respond because l don't really know you apart from reading your comments.

I don't think there is anything wrong with passion & emotion. In fact l would say these are two key attributes as to why we connect to football in the way we do. I read your comments & l know like many of us they come from a place of frustation. We just want this football club to blossom into something many of us dreamt about. I don't think there is much wrong with this as long as it doesn't cross a certain line.

Where l get annoyed with people is personal abuse. Why on earth do that? If you can't keep it about football then don't say anything. Yet people do. Some fans are complete idiots because they lost the art of communication & instead turn it into social media venting.

Most will know l don't rate Jordan Houghton. However, that doesn't mean l don't respect him. The guy is one of very few people who get to play professional football at a high level. To do this you got to have the right character & a certain skillset to make it. He is probably a really nice bloke. I just make sure when l talk about him it's in regards to football & how l want this club to keep on evolving. There is a way of talking about people that can remain respectful.

In two weeks time, l can guarantee you if we go down there will be an outpouring of emotional venting. I even think there will be a few people stupid enough to say Simon Hallett needs to move on.

There is no logic or rational to what some people say on social media. There is often just a ramblings of words because their emotions get the better of them. Yet, if your really lucky you get posts like you just made where people will understand where your coming from. Just by thinking about your actions you wrote a thought provoking piece about how you reacted to Saturday's game. Not many people would be prepared to open themselves up on social media in that way.
Lot of great points but for me to really take them on i need to know why you don’t rate Houghton.
 

jespafc

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Oct 23, 2005
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Great post, MGM.

I saw a lot of Stoke fans on social media mocking Argyle and gloating after they'd won on Saturday, but when I look at their club and how it has been run recently and who owns it, I feel much less affected by that loss on Saturday.
 

Jon with no H

🚑 Steve Hooper
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Great post, MGM.

I saw a lot of Stoke fans on social media mocking Argyle and gloating after they'd won on Saturday, but when I look at their club and how it has been run recently and who owns it, I feel much less affected by that loss on Saturday.
I think that's what MGM was talking about in respect of the absence of any real thought being put into it, those reactions plus the variations on the theme of "cry more" that account for every other Twitter post about any issue in football.

Stoke haven't finished above 14th since getting relegated into this division, but seem to think they're on a par with Real Madrid if you go by some of the more optimistic offerings from their fans!
 
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Oct 23, 2013
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I've always taken the idea of outsmarting as a plan to reach parity with other teams rather than run rings round them. It just means looking under more rocks than everyone else, or a different set of rocks that other teams aren't prepared to look under in the first place.

At the same time, there is no getting away from the fact there are other teams, even some of those in the final 5 around us at the moment with far bigger budgets, and it's difficult to imagine that every single person making decisions at those clubs is either a lunatic or a moron (there are clearly some who might be one or the other).
Yes I agree with that. I agree it has never been sold as running rings around anyone. I think the scope to achieve parity has been overstated and we were always going to have to face up to the shortfall in resources eventually.

I think the idea that better resourced teams aren't looking under those stones is optimistic and has been overstated. In reality they can look under a wider range of stones as they have more resources.
 

Jon with no H

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Yes I agree with that. I agree it has never been sold as running rings around anyone. I think the scope to achieve parity has been overstated and we were always going to have to face up to the shortfall in resources eventually.

I think the idea that better resourced teams aren't looking under those stones is optimistic and has been overstated. In reality they can look under a wider range of stones as they have more resources.
I don't think it's going too far to say we would be looking under a different set of rocks to teams in the top 10 - they don't have to shop at our level after all, and most of the time will just spend whatever it costs to get the people they want.
 
Aug 8, 2014
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A thoughtful and interesting post, MGM. However, I am not so sure we are at a sliding doors moment as relegation from the Championship will be consequential on the trajectory of future events for a season at least. Such is the ever expanding gulf between League One and the Championship we will become one of the biggest two or three clubs in League One, instead of the smallest in the Championship should we stay up. However, the Sky TV money will exacerbate that gulf further making the return to the second tier an even greater step to breach in the future. A relegation, this of all seasons, will be consequential.

However, we are uniquely blessed with a Chairman with a record of excellence in long term thinking and strategy as his business record ably demonstrates. Of course that will jar with the 'we want it now' brigade happy for someone, anyone, to spend money on players and wages to compete on the gamble as Simon once put it, to get into a fringe play-off place with a 25% chance of securing the financial prize of at least a season in the Premiership. That is the reality of parachute payments in the Championship. A paying of wages we couldn't afford underpinned the frightening decline in 2010/2011 that almost cost our existence in the EFL. It is a salutory lesson that all should remember.

What has almost gone unnoticed is the significant enhancement of the asset value of the club. The completion of the acquisition from James Brent of all of the Higher Home Park land gave the club vital 'on the doorstep' room to expand. We now have an exceptional gymnasium, a fan zone and shortly a new GTs marquee. It also longer term gives the space for the necessary, albeit with a quantum leap in cost, Mayflower capacity expansion. The acquisition of the GTs building gives an immediate and significant enhancement to matchday corporate expenditure whilst reinforcing and expanding essential non-matchday income. Then you add Goals, and the land alongside it, which offers not only income but a site for a proper first team training home adjoining the existing training pitches. Finally, you can add Brickfields which whilst requiring an £11m equity investment that benefits from an additional £9m grant funding - what a bargain to achieve a Category 2 Academy that will benefit the club for decades to come. This is all long term thinking and strategy par excellence. What is even better is that all this has been achieved without any borrowing and is all paid for or covered by equity investment. It is truly a remakable achievement.

One of the hallmarks in Simon's strategy is the pursuit of excellence off the pitch. We have sponsorship and hospitality income at previously unthinkable levels. We have Evergreen with 6,000 signed up memebers, we have ArgyleTV generating additional income. All this will add up to a turnover this season that probably will double that achieved last season. Not many companies in the region will be achieving that sort of financial growth.

Finally, we have something that is priceless. A 'One Argyle' culture, a togetherness that is unparalleled throught the EFL. We travel in numbers, we are loved by many fans wherever we go but most importantly we are able to generate an atmosphere such as v Leicester that can make us an almost unstoppable force. The alleged potential investor present at the Leicester game surely could not fail to be impressed as long as it is understood that investing in Argyle in long term project. The Argyle Green investors that left chased perceived immediate returns in Tel Aviv - that went well. It just shows how short term gambles can turn out.

Simon did in an off guarded moment suggest being relegated may not be a disaster - he is right given what has been quietly assembled off pitch. We would return in a position of unparalled financial and facility strength better placed to make a more indelible mark in the Championship. I hope and pray that we don't go down - not least for what Simon and Jane have achieved, as Simon would put it, being contrary by embracing long term thinking. 'One Argyle' will prevail and I am sure will remain at the forefront of Simon's thinking. The difficult bit, now, is getting the next Head Coach appointment to buy into it and translate it into performance on the pitch- ironically, that is the bit that the best of long term thinking and strategy off the pitch cannot control. That's football as Simon well knows.
This is an outstanding summary of all things PAFC
 
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Oct 23, 2013
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I don't think it's going too far to say we would be looking under a different set of rocks to teams in the top 10 - they don't have to shop at our level after all, and most of the time will just spend whatever it costs to get the people they want.
I hope you are right but I don't think there are that many stones being ignored by other teams. Look how premiership academies hoover up young kids who are on the books of smaller clubs. Many of them do not develop into pros so they are not simply buying proven talent. They are still looking at a wide range of levels. Are we competing with the top 10 even? Maybe it's my pessimism but I don't think that there are so many hidden gems but I accept we have to try.
 

Jon with no H

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I hope you are right but I don't think there are that many stones being ignored by other teams. Look how premiership academies hoover up young kids who are on the books of smaller clubs. Many of them do not develop into pros so they are not simply buying proven talent. They are still looking at a wide range of levels. Are we competing with the top 10 even? Maybe it's my pessimism but I don't think that there are so many hidden gems but I accept we have to try.
Whatever the answer, at least we agree that doing nothing is not the way forward!
 
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Jul 12, 2016
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A thoughtful and interesting post, MGM. However, I am not so sure we are at a sliding doors moment as relegation from the Championship will be consequential on the trajectory of future events for a season at least. Such is the ever expanding gulf between League One and the Championship we will become one of the biggest two or three clubs in League One, instead of the smallest in the Championship should we stay up. However, the Sky TV money will exacerbate that gulf further making the return to the second tier an even greater step to breach in the future. A relegation, this of all seasons, will be consequential.

However, we are uniquely blessed with a Chairman with a record of excellence in long term thinking and strategy as his business record ably demonstrates. Of course that will jar with the 'we want it now' brigade happy for someone, anyone, to spend money on players and wages to compete on the gamble as Simon once put it, to get into a fringe play-off place with a 25% chance of securing the financial prize of at least a season in the Premiership. That is the reality of parachute payments in the Championship. A paying of wages we couldn't afford underpinned the frightening decline in 2010/2011 that almost cost our existence in the EFL. It is a salutory lesson that all should remember.

What has almost gone unnoticed is the significant enhancement of the asset value of the club. The completion of the acquisition from James Brent of all of the Higher Home Park land gave the club vital 'on the doorstep' room to expand. We now have an exceptional gymnasium, a fan zone and shortly a new GTs marquee. It also longer term gives the space for the necessary, albeit with a quantum leap in cost, Mayflower capacity expansion. The acquisition of the GTs building gives an immediate and significant enhancement to matchday corporate expenditure whilst reinforcing and expanding essential non-matchday income. Then you add Goals, and the land alongside it, which offers not only income but a site for a proper first team training home adjoining the existing training pitches. Finally, you can add Brickfields which whilst requiring an £11m equity investment that benefits from an additional £9m grant funding - what a bargain to achieve a Category 2 Academy that will benefit the club for decades to come. This is all long term thinking and strategy par excellence. What is even better is that all this has been achieved without any borrowing and is all paid for or covered by equity investment. It is truly a remakable achievement.

One of the hallmarks in Simon's strategy is the pursuit of excellence off the pitch. We have sponsorship and hospitality income at previously unthinkable levels. We have Evergreen with 6,000 signed up memebers, we have ArgyleTV generating additional income. All this will add up to a turnover this season that probably will double that achieved last season. Not many companies in the region will be achieving that sort of financial growth.

Finally, we have something that is priceless. A 'One Argyle' culture, a togetherness that is unparalleled throught the EFL. We travel in numbers, we are loved by many fans wherever we go but most importantly we are able to generate an atmosphere such as v Leicester that can make us an almost unstoppable force. The alleged potential investor present at the Leicester game surely could not fail to be impressed as long as it is understood that investing in Argyle in long term project. The Argyle Green investors that left chased perceived immediate returns in Tel Aviv - that went well. It just shows how short term gambles can turn out.

Simon did in an off guarded moment suggest being relegated may not be a disaster - he is right given what has been quietly assembled off pitch. We would return in a position of unparalled financial and facility strength better placed to make a more indelible mark in the Championship. I hope and pray that we don't go down - not least for what Simon and Jane have achieved, as Simon would put it, being contrary by embracing long term thinking. 'One Argyle' will prevail and I am sure will remain at the forefront of Simon's thinking. The difficult bit, now, is getting the next Head Coach appointment to buy into it and translate it into performance on the pitch- ironically, that is the bit that the best of long term thinking and strategy off the pitch cannot control. That's football as Simon well knows.
“We now have an exceptional gymnasium, a fan zone and shortly a new GT’s marquee” yet can’t even provide decent parking for two home supporters coaches!😡
 
Jul 12, 2016
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I hope you are right but I don't think there are that many stones being ignored by other teams. Look how premiership academies hoover up young kids who are on the books of smaller clubs. Many of them do not develop into pros so they are not simply buying proven talent. They are still looking at a wide range of levels. Are we competing with the top 10 even? Maybe it's my pessimism but I don't think that there are so many hidden gems but I accept we have to try.
There is a big wide world out there.Perhaps we're not looking in the right places. Stoke appear to have gone Dutch
 
Sep 22, 2020
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380
my understanding is that the club are going to have a turnover of £24/25m this season. A staggering increase.

However, costs to generate this are also £24/25 million. A staggering increase.

if we are relegated our income will inevitably go down.

So either our costs go down or someone makes up the shortfall.

anyone who thinks relegation is not a major issue needs to consider this.
 
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