Should Tony Cholwell resign?

[Tim Chown]

Thanks Tim and Damon.

My issue is that this is nothing to do with Pasoti or the Fan Fests.

Tony's stance is between him and ATD but I note that you are both quick enough to jump in and defend ATD on this thread and yet as regular posters on ATD you are happy enough to say nothing about the daily constant personal attacks and insults on ATD aimed at fans, people at the club or the club itself.

Do you agree with the defamation of character carried out each day on ATD and if you don't agree why haven't you both spoken out as you have done on this thread?

This isn't about choosing a fans' forum, it's about decency on both forums, not just one.

Hi Postey,

John's post above explains the important aspects of the issue between Tony and ATD. It's not about defending ATD.

There are negative things posted about the club, the manager and the owner both here and on ATD. Usually by the same groups of people on both. But life is too short to argue every opinion or view posted on an Internet forum. However, if while browsing I happen to see an obvious misrepresentation of facts, be it accidental or deliberate, then if I have time I will try to post to set that straight, e.g. yesterday morning I clarified the GT accelerated loan position on a thread on ATD by posting a link to the GT's statement about their arrangement with the club. Damon, JonB and others often do likewise on ATD, so then it's up to the reader to decide where the truth lies.

I'd also add that I have many good conversations on ATD about Argyle matches, Trust issues, or other Argyle topics. There's some good posters over there, and some good threads.

It's a shame the differences between the two sites can't be patched up.

Tim

 

[PL2 3DQ]

Thanks Tim and Damon.

My issue is that this is nothing to do with Pasoti or the Fan Fests.

Tony's stance is between him and ATD but I note that you are both quick enough to jump in and defend ATD on this thread and yet as regular posters on ATD you are happy enough to say nothing about the daily constant personal attacks and insults on ATD aimed at fans, people at the club or the club itself.

Do you agree with the defamation of character carried out each day on ATD and if you don't agree why haven't you both spoken out as you have done on this thread?

This isn't about choosing a fans' forum, it's about decency on both forums, not just one.

Hi Postey,

John's post above explains the important aspects of the issue between Tony and ATD. It's not about defending ATD.

There are negative things posted about the club, the manager and the owner both here and on ATD. Usually by the same groups of people on both. But life is too short to argue every opinion or view posted on an Internet forum. However, if while browsing I happen to see an obvious misrepresentation of facts, be it accidental or deliberate, then if I have time I will try to post to set that straight, e.g. yesterday morning I clarified the GT accelerated loan position on a thread on ATD by posting a link to the GT's statement about their arrangement with the club. Damon, JonB and others often do likewise on ATD, so then it's up to the reader to decide where the truth lies.

I'd also add that I have many good conversations on ATD about Argyle matches, Trust issues, or other Argyle topics. There's some good posters over there, and some good threads.

It's a shame the differences between the two sites can't be patched up.

Tim

Tim

Thanks for your reply. I mentioned defamation of character, not negative postings. Yes, there are negative postings on Pasoti, of course but the Mods do their best to remove slander, defamation of character, bullying, libel and lies.

No matter, you've made your point.

 

[Damon.Lenszner]

Ian I havent defended ATD on this site. The fact that I haven't attacked ATD and that I post on ATD may be an irritation to some people. The fact is that ATD is an Argyle fans messageboard. The people that post on there are Argyle fans, save the odd grecian troller, and there are many Argyle fans that post on both sites. Remember the days when Pasoti was the only Argyle fans messageboard? The guys (and Peggy) on ATD were all posting on Pasoti. But for various reasons Pasoti decided that the views of a number of posters were no longer welcome here and ATD was born.

ARgyle is not the best supported club in the country, hell its not even the best supported club in Plymouth. It is my personal belief that nobody involved in the running of our football club, in whatever position, can afford to alienate or divide supporters. We will never all agree. I dont agree with some of my clisest Argyle friends on many aspects of what is happening within the club. But we all deserve respect, we all have a common bond.

There is now deep rooted bad blood between certain people across the two sites. It is not for me to sit as judge and jury. As I said I have not defended ATD - I do not believe they have done anything wrong by refusing to remove the jokes that offend Tony. But deep down Ian are you certain that Tony's original post was nothing to do with his war with ATD? If this is the case then is it not wrong for him to use Pasoti as a weapon in his war?

Ian you have always struck me as someone with a logical, investigative mind. Do not let your position as a Mod on Pasoti cloud the search for the truth.

 

[Tim Chown]

Thanks for your reply. I mentioned defamation of character, not negative postings. Yes, there are negative postings on Pasoti, of course but the Mods do their best to remove slander, defamation of character, bullying, libel and lies.

You mentioned both. Of course I do not support libel, etc. and I certainly appreciate that policing a site for such content can be a difficult and time-consuming task.

 

[Gareth Nicholson]

Tim

Thanks for your reply. I mentioned defamation of character, not negative postings. Yes, there are negative postings on Pasoti, of course but the Mods do their best to remove slander, defamation of character, bullying, libel and lies.

No matter, you've made your point.

So it's just possible that there might still be potentially defamatory (I'm not a lawyer, although I do like the Rumpole books, so can't say any further than 'potentially') content on Pasoti? And it's just as possible, or at least there might be a teeny-weeny chance, that Mods on ATD 'do their best' to remove libel (websites don't do slander) etc on that site?

There's a lot of stuff that's gratuitously abusive on ATD. That's not necessarily libellous. There are also questions about the conduct and motivations of a small number of people. Some of them fairly pertinent to questions of propriety in who is elected to certain functions. Again, that's not necessarily libellous. And there is redress available to you should you or others feel that your character has been defamed and Mods have not taken action.

On that, it's a question of a style of moderation that differs between ATD and Pasoti. If the ATD mods are comfortable with where a more liberatarian and less-regulated approach leaves them in terms of legalities, that's probably all she wrote.

Edited: An afterthought. In the interests of full disclosure, I should add that when I complained about potentially actionable allegations on Pasoti, a thread title was changed, for which I was grateful. The comments are still there, but it was an appropriate outcome.

 

[hairy j]

Tim, are you posting as an individual or as a Trust leader?
I don't know how or why the Fan Fest (remember the Trust use the GT Suite for their functions) has been brought into this by you and others.

As an individual.

As others have asked, is Tony posting as the result of an issue between him and poster(s) on ATD, or out of general principle? If he objects to the ATD jokes, does he object to similar jokes elsewhere?

I'm of course a huge fan of the GTs and everything they do. Damon has made good points about the FanFests. The point is whether Tony is being consistent here.

Thanks Tim and Damon.

My issue is that this is nothing to do with Pasoti or the Fan Fests.

Tony's stance is between him and ATD but I note that you are both quick enough to jump in and defend ATD on this thread and yet as regular posters on ATD you are happy enough to say nothing about the daily constant personal attacks and insults on ATD aimed at fans, people at the club or the club itself.

Do you agree with the defamation of character carried out each day on ATD and if you don't agree why haven't you both spoken out as you have done on this thread?

This isn't about choosing a fans' forum, it's about decency on both forums, not just one.

ATD isn't a person and the Mods don't set a collective agenda - when people accuse pasoti of the same thing, you jump to the defence of the website and (quite rightly) deny that this is the case. This is about one single individual on ATD (the 'known racist' - that's rubbish too and that's defamation) who has deep personal issues with Tony. Tony has used this entire non-issue to continue that personal issue on the Herald comments section and now on pasoti (where this 'known racist' is unable to respond). This is Tony vs Name Removed by Site Admin (the 'known racist').

I'd rather you said that defamation happened by a poster/posters on a forum as opposed to claiming ATD is making defamatory statements.

When the PASB finally meet up one thing they surely cannot allow is for personal vendettas to cloud what they do in the name of the PASB. Another thing they surely cannot allow is for a warped sense of morality to set their agendas. The PASB is apparently there to represent the fans at board level - I apologise for this but not all fans are puritanical Daily Mail reading, moral guardians of goodness.

How can there be a statement that ATD harbours a known racist and then, when I name that 'known racist', the name is removed? If the 'known racist' is known, surely everyone knows who the 'known racist' is. Is it because the 'known racist' isn't a 'known racist' at all and that by naming that 'known racist', the holier than thou attitude on here will backfire as, if you don't remove the name, you've allowed someone to name a 'known racist' who isn't a 'known racist' and therefore would be guilty of defamation.

Does that make sense?

 

[Mark Pedlar]

How can there be a statement that ATD harbours a known racist and then, when I name that 'known racist', the name is removed? If the 'known racist' is known, surely everyone knows who the 'known racist' is. Is it because the 'known racist' isn't a 'known racist' at all and that by naming that 'known racist', the holier than thou attitude on here will backfire as, if you don't remove the name, you've allowed someone to name a 'known racist' who isn't a 'known racist' and therefore would be guilty of defamation.

Does that make sense?

No

As you have quite rightly previously pointed out - the individual has no right of response on this site. We will not name him or allow others to. I suggest you question him where he has got the right of response. It's not for us to police another site.

 

[hairy j]

A bit off topic but there was a thread involving gypsys on here last year after the Southend game. Are some of those people who condoned the chanting and made the statement that calling someone a 'gypo' was acceptible 'known racists' too or does it just apply to people who are banned from this website and who are a thorn in the side of many people who post here? Many of the Southend chanters and condoners still post on here.

Personally, I've been called names on ATD for calling people out for some frankly ridiculous posts - I've had run ins with the 'known racist' for some of his more outlandish outbursts and I'd like to think I was fairly consistent. I can understand why certain people on here aren't happy with what gets posted over there but let he without sin cast the first stone. There aren't actually that many innocent parties involved - including our own PASB member TC.

On topic. A direct question to Tony. If you have principles (however strange they might be to the vast majority), that's something to applaud if you then stand up for them. What happens however if the vast majority on these threads disagree with you? The vast majority are all Plymouth Argyle Supporters so if you are elected by them to represent them, you should either back down and represent them or stand down on principle as it's obvious from this thread and others that you aren't able to take your personal principles aside and represent the fanbase as a whole.

 

[X Isle]

OK peeps, let's look at this another way. IRRESPECTIVE or who is morally, technically or legally right, wrong, tainted or clean Tony Hooper is now a bigger issue than PASB.

Three pages here, 10 on the terraces and 8 on the second thread here. Within the wider Argyle family there are also dozens of pages on various ATD threads too.

At a time when we, as a club, are turning the corner and we should be looking up to the horizon and moving forwards together we find ourselves navel gazing and bickering over such unimaginabley inane side issues, pathetic grievances and ultimately some thinly disguised c*ck measuring by grown adults who should know better.....on ALL sides I should stress, I'm being evenhanded in my distribution of tw@ttishness.

Now, as I say IRRESPECTIVE of the rights or wrongs when an individual becomes a bigger issue than the message you want to get out, your organisation is hamstrung.

He's stubborn, I admire that to an extent. But PASB should be bigger than an individual, it shouldn't be sidelined by a divisive ego when togetherness is the way forward. People will be disengaged from PASB by that attitude, they have been already.

If PASB is to be of any relevance at all, and it really should be, then if Mohammed won't go to the mountain...........

 

[Ambo]

A shambles. Tony cholwell has made a huge mistake and the Trust people have seized on this as pay back for his criticism of the Trust while the same trust poeple turn a blind eye to the outrageous comments on ATD. A mess all round and reflect badly on pafc.

 

[ejh]

It's a fansgroup representative, not a front bench cabinet member. Also, this is regarding a fans fest at a provincial football club, not a reception for the U.S. ambassador. Everyone really needs to cup of tea, calm down and have a reality check methinks.

 

[Leigh Rapson]

A shambles. Tony cholwell has made a huge mistake and the Trust people have seized on this as pay back for his criticism of the Trust while the same trust poeple turn a blind eye to the outrageous comments on ATD. A mess all round and reflect badly on pafc.

It doesn't reflect in any way shape or form on PAFc it's the internet ffs. People really need to get a grip.

Tony has made a huge error here, I'm dissapointed in the route that he has taken and it's a shame that a once strong willed and intelligent person appears to have been influenced but hey ho.

Should Tony resign over this? Really? No, he shouldn't, it was poor judgement and a seemingly pointless attack on someone but everyone makes mistakes. TBH it's threads like this that have been turning more and more people away from Pasoti. That's not a pop Womble, if you feel strongly then you should raise an issue, muvch like Tony did.

 

[Damon.Lenszner]

It's true, the only people watching this are already inside PAFC so it wont reflect badly to the outside world - or it wouldnt have done if Tony hadnt written to the world and his brother about it.

 

[Womble]

Leigh, i feel its tony's behaviour more than mine in meking pasoti unpleasent. Maybe the mods should lock this subject and tony can continue his campaign away from pasoti.