Not yet financially sustainable

[Pettgreen]

LOLOLOL Honestly after Grahams post which basically polished my post up, you STILL have the same view. Thanks for the giggle Oddball.

 

[Kentishgreen]

Why are people so concerned about this. I doubt the club has had sustainable finances in all of its history. It’s a tribute to the current owner and his predecessor that they intend to make this happen. We’ll be speculating how much comes in from programme sales next! We’ve had enough of owners who speculate on a pipe dream.

 

[davie nine]

Attendances even in League 1 are increasingly representing a smaller proportion of turnover. In addition, the ‘fag packet’ maths often overlook that for starters that 20% of the ticket revenues go straight to HM Treasury in VAT. They also overlook that Argyle have a high rate of concessions, both old and young that also reduce the net ticket revenue. The AFT published some figures in 2012 (see link below) that showed less than half of the 4,500 ‘members’ were full price season tickets.

Martyn Starnes was on the record a few years back as saying the average net revenue per ticket was around £11. If you say that since then, with some annual price increases that has increased to a net figure of around £13 that would be a reasonable assessment.

Taking our average attendance as 6,915 in our first season out of administration in 2011/2012 we increased in to 10,413 last season – an increase of around 50% in six seasons. That average equates to an increase in net revenue of 3,498 x 23 (home League games) x £13 (average net ticket revenue). That totals an increase in net gate revenue of £1,045,902. So an attendance
increase over six seasons of around 50% equates to just over £1m in additional net revenue to
the Club.

We can speculate how much the wage bill may have increased over those six seasons but for certain other costs would have risen and eaten away at the increased net revenue, without taking into account any of the grandstand redevelopment costs and catching up with much needed maintenance and improvement of other facilities.

Where the Club have definitely underperformed is in net transfer income and unbudgeted Cup run income over the last six seasons (Liverpool and the sale of the likes of Hourihane, Nelson and Purrington aside). We have not produced many young players into the first team. Neither have we improved players for resale at enhanced value. We also have underperformed in terms of hospitality income but this is now being addressed although the net benefits may be a little way off.
Many other League 1 clubs have benefitted from significant transfer income and the financial returns of lucrative cup runs without substantively relying on attendance income. I think we rank seventh on attendances but may have underperformed relatively on the other measures.

In addition, we are providing additional capacity and a massively improved facilities and hospitality offer as well as playing catch up on necessary measures such as the floodlights, the pitch, the ‘tannoy’ system plus I am sure a myriad of other unseen items.

The path to sustainability (income matching expenditure) is a painstaking one and is certainly not dependent solely on attendances but we are doing OK. Thankfully, we have an owner willing and able to fund us through this unsustainable period and communicate openly as the current guardian of the Club. The areas for improvement have been identified and openly expressed. We just have to ensure that we fully commit to them.

https://www.argylefanstrust.com/2012/09 ... mberships/

Graham....I think your maths is way out.Tomorrow I am paying £19 for a concession ticket and even allowing for inclusive VAT that still equates to a price of around £16 and that is a concession ticket the full adult price is £24....making an average price of somewhere between the two....must be near £20 which is way above your £13 and whoever is quoting £11 is clearly a troll....and we are close to averaging 10k this season so the money is flowing in through the turnstiles and I find it hard to believe the club is not sustainable on those figures which make us the seventh best supported club in this division.

Perhaps you should politely address your cynical disbelief to Simon Hallett. He has invited doubters, as well as praisers, to email him.

He assured us at Fans’ Forum that he has answered every email that he has received with only one exception because that person was rude and abusive and did not deserve a reply.

I don’t know Graham Clark but I do know that his posts on Pasoti are very intelligently presented and if he has been convinced by what our owner has said that is good enough for me.

I can confirm that he answered an email that I sent him.

 

[oddball]

Attendances even in League 1 are increasingly representing a smaller proportion of turnover. In addition, the ‘fag packet’ maths often overlook that for starters that 20% of the ticket revenues go straight to HM Treasury in VAT. They also overlook that Argyle have a high rate of concessions, both old and young that also reduce the net ticket revenue. The AFT published some figures in 2012 (see link below) that showed less than half of the 4,500 ‘members’ were full price season tickets.

Martyn Starnes was on the record a few years back as saying the average net revenue per ticket was around £11. If you say that since then, with some annual price increases that has increased to a net figure of around £13 that would be a reasonable assessment.

Taking our average attendance as 6,915 in our first season out of administration in 2011/2012 we increased in to 10,413 last season – an increase of around 50% in six seasons. That average equates to an increase in net revenue of 3,498 x 23 (home League games) x £13 (average net ticket revenue). That totals an increase in net gate revenue of £1,045,902. So an attendance
increase over six seasons of around 50% equates to just over £1m in additional net revenue to
the Club.

We can speculate how much the wage bill may have increased over those six seasons but for certain other costs would have risen and eaten away at the increased net revenue, without taking into account any of the grandstand redevelopment costs and catching up with much needed maintenance and improvement of other facilities.

Where the Club have definitely underperformed is in net transfer income and unbudgeted Cup run income over the last six seasons (Liverpool and the sale of the likes of Hourihane, Nelson and Purrington aside). We have not produced many young players into the first team. Neither have we improved players for resale at enhanced value. We also have underperformed in terms of hospitality income but this is now being addressed although the net benefits may be a little way off.
Many other League 1 clubs have benefitted from significant transfer income and the financial returns of lucrative cup runs without substantively relying on attendance income. I think we rank seventh on attendances but may have underperformed relatively on the other measures.

In addition, we are providing additional capacity and a massively improved facilities and hospitality offer as well as playing catch up on necessary measures such as the floodlights, the pitch, the ‘tannoy’ system plus I am sure a myriad of other unseen items.

The path to sustainability (income matching expenditure) is a painstaking one and is certainly not dependent solely on attendances but we are doing OK. Thankfully, we have an owner willing and able to fund us through this unsustainable period and communicate openly as the current guardian of the Club. The areas for improvement have been identified and openly expressed. We just have to ensure that we fully commit to them.

https://www.argylefanstrust.com/2012/09 ... mberships/

Graham....I think your maths is way out.Tomorrow I am paying £19 for a concession ticket and even allowing for inclusive VAT that still equates to a price of around £16 and that is a concession ticket the full adult price is £24....making an average price of somewhere between the two....must be near £20 which is way above your £13 and whoever is quoting £11 is clearly a troll....and we are close to averaging 10k this season so the money is flowing in through the turnstiles and I find it hard to believe the club is not sustainable on those figures which make us the seventh best supported club in this division.

Perhaps you should politely address your cynical disbelief to Simon Hallett. He has invited doubters, as well as praisers, to email him.

He assured us at Fans’ Forum that he has answered every email that he has received with only one exception because that person was rude and abusive and did not deserve a reply.

I don’t know Graham Clark but I do know that his posts on Pasoti are very intelligently presented and if he has been convinced by what our owner has said that is good enough for me.

I can confirm that he answered an email that I sent him.

Thanks for the advice but I prefer to wait and see if Graham replies.I know him quite well.As an aside.....Keith Todd went on the record many years ago and stated that the average net revenue per ticket was £15 and that was over 7 years ago and prices have gone up significantly since that time including season ticket prices so I am challenging Grahams logic

 

[Gary Wills]

Surely the key problem for all the clubs given the post '92 power shift, is that the most powerful participants, the players and managers, have no incentive at all for the clubs to reach and be sustainable. Just today you see Hollow, all be him a simpleton, still equating prudence to lack of ambition.

Even in "elite" banking, some of the reward is deferred via stock options for example. In sports, none of that. Of course, the sports media feeding on scraps from the hand of the main participants will turn that on the least powerful, the customers' supposed short termism.

 

[Graham Clark]

Oddball, according to the season ticket figures I referred to there are almost as many u-18 and junior members (as part of a Family Membership) as there are over-65 concessions. Since 2012 there may be even more junior members given the family initiatives the Club offer. That is significant as they pay just over £5 per game which rather brings the overall average down somewhat.

Both Martyn Starnes and Michael Dunford are on the record as stating that the average net revenue per ticket is less than the £13 I quoted.

 

[Keepitgreen]

Why are people so concerned about this. I doubt the club has had sustainable finances in all of its history. It’s a tribute to the current owner and his predecessor that they intend to make this happen. We’ll be speculating how much comes in from programme sales next! We’ve had enough of owners who speculate on a pipe dream.

The first season in the Championship was about the 5th season in a row that we made a profit. The wages went up and better players came in.........sadly the crowds went down and so the slide began. I realise that other factors contributed to our demise too.

 

[oddball]

Oddball, according to the season ticket figures I referred to there are almost as many u-18 and junior members (as part of a Family Membership) as there are over-65 concessions. Since 2012 there may be even more junior members given the family initiatives the Club offer. That is significant as they pay just over £5 per game which rather brings the overall average down somewhat.

Both Martyn Starnes and Michael Dunford are on the record as stating that the average net revenue per ticket is less than the £13 I quoted.

Graham thanks for your reply.I guess we will have to disagree on this one.Keith Todd and indeed Michael Dunford first time around have stated £15 as an average income and that too is on the record,and yes the club did have a fair number of junior greens even in those days possibly more than today.Tomorrow most of the crowd will be paying £24 to get in so am at a loss even with discounted tickets how you can suddenly drop to £13.....In addition we have we some of the highest match day prices in this league and with a large fan base as well currently around 10k this should leadto a very healthy match day income and contrary to what you say most clubs in this league rely on match day income for their survival.I just find it incomprehensible that Argyle are running at a loss.

 

[Guiri Green]

Oddball, according to the season ticket figures I referred to there are almost as many u-18 and junior members (as part of a Family Membership) as there are over-65 concessions. Since 2012 there may be even more junior members given the family initiatives the Club offer. That is significant as they pay just over £5 per game which rather brings the overall average down somewhat.

Both Martyn Starnes and Michael Dunford are on the record as stating that the average net revenue per ticket is less than the £13 I quoted.

Graham thanks for your reply.I guess we will have to disagree on this one.Keith Todd and indeed Michael Dunford first time around have stated £15 as an average income and that too is on the record,and yes the club did have a fair number of junior greens even in those days possibly more than today.Tomorrow most of the crowd will be paying £24 to get in so am at a loss even with discounted tickets how you can suddenly drop to £13.....In addition we have we some of the highest match day prices in this league and with a large fan base as well currently around 10k this should leadto a very healthy match day income and contrary to what you say most clubs in this league rely on match day income for their survival.I just find it incomprehensible that Argyle are running at a loss.

Do you know how much Carey, Lamerias and Adams are on ?

Or how many more Stewards we have to pay for compared to some of the smaller Clubs ?

Or the concept of Stadium upkeep overheads ?

 

[Shankster]

Oddball, according to the season ticket figures I referred to there are almost as many u-18 and junior members (as part of a Family Membership) as there are over-65 concessions. Since 2012 there may be even more junior members given the family initiatives the Club offer. That is significant as they pay just over £5 per game which rather brings the overall average down somewhat.

Both Martyn Starnes and Michael Dunford are on the record as stating that the average net revenue per ticket is less than the £13 I quoted.

Graham thanks for your reply.I guess we will have to disagree on this one.Keith Todd and indeed Michael Dunford first time around have stated £15 as an average income and that too is on the record,and yes the club did have a fair number of junior greens even in those days possibly more than today.Tomorrow most of the crowd will be paying £24 to get in so am at a loss even with discounted tickets how you can suddenly drop to £13.....In addition we have we some of the highest match day prices in this league and with a large fan base as well currently around 10k this should leadto a very healthy match day income and contrary to what you say most clubs in this league rely on match day income for their survival.I just find it incomprehensible that Argyle are running at a loss.

Hahahahahaha

 

[Kentishgreen]

Wonder if anybody has ever heard of off balance sheet finance. Would that ever happen at a football club? Surely not.

 

[Ollieargyle9]

Attendances even in League 1 are increasingly representing a smaller proportion of turnover. In addition, the ‘fag packet’ maths often overlook that for starters that 20% of the ticket revenues go straight to HM Treasury in VAT. They also overlook that Argyle have a high rate of concessions, both old and young that also reduce the net ticket revenue. The AFT published some figures in 2012 (see link below) that showed less than half of the 4,500 ‘members’ were full price season tickets.

Martyn Starnes was on the record a few years back as saying the average net revenue per ticket was around £11. If you say that since then, with some annual price increases that has increased to a net figure of around £13 that would be a reasonable assessment.

Taking our average attendance as 6,915 in our first season out of administration in 2011/2012 we increased in to 10,413 last season – an increase of around 50% in six seasons. That average equates to an increase in net revenue of 3,498 x 23 (home League games) x £13 (average net ticket revenue). That totals an increase in net gate revenue of £1,045,902. So an attendance
increase over six seasons of around 50% equates to just over £1m in additional net revenue to
the Club.

We can speculate how much the wage bill may have increased over those six seasons but for certain other costs would have risen and eaten away at the increased net revenue, without taking into account any of the grandstand redevelopment costs and catching up with much needed maintenance and improvement of other facilities.

Where the Club have definitely underperformed is in net transfer income and unbudgeted Cup run income over the last six seasons (Liverpool and the sale of the likes of Hourihane, Nelson and Purrington aside). We have not produced many young players into the first team. Neither have we improved players for resale at enhanced value. We also have underperformed in terms of hospitality income but this is now being addressed although the net benefits may be a little way off.
Many other League 1 clubs have benefitted from significant transfer income and the financial returns of lucrative cup runs without substantively relying on attendance income. I think we rank seventh on attendances but may have underperformed relatively on the other measures.

In addition, we are providing additional capacity and a massively improved facilities and hospitality offer as well as playing catch up on necessary measures such as the floodlights, the pitch, the ‘tannoy’ system plus I am sure a myriad of other unseen items.

The path to sustainability (income matching expenditure) is a painstaking one and is certainly not dependent solely on attendances but we are doing OK. Thankfully, we have an owner willing and able to fund us through this unsustainable period and communicate openly as the current guardian of the Club. The areas for improvement have been identified and openly expressed. We just have to ensure that we fully commit to them.

https://www.argylefanstrust.com/2012/09 ... mberships/

Graham....I think your maths is way out.Tomorrow I am paying £19 for a concession ticket and even allowing for inclusive VAT that still equates to a price of around £16 and that is a concession ticket the full adult price is £24....making an average price of somewhere between the two....must be near £20 which is way above your £13 and whoever is quoting £11 is clearly a troll....and we are close to averaging 10k this season so the money is flowing in through the turnstiles and I find it hard to believe the club is not sustainable on those figures which make us the seventh best supported club in this division.

Perhaps you should politely address your cynical disbelief to Simon Hallett. He has invited doubters, as well as praisers, to email him.

He assured us at Fans’ Forum that he has answered every email that he has received with only one exception because that person was rude and abusive and did not deserve a reply.

I don’t know Graham Clark but I do know that his posts on Pasoti are very intelligently presented and if he has been convinced by what our owner has said that is good enough for me.

I can confirm that he answered an email that I sent him.

Thanks for the advice but I prefer to wait and see if Graham replies.I know him quite well.As an aside.....Keith Todd went on the record many years ago and stated that the average net revenue per ticket was £15 and that was over 7 years ago and prices have gone up significantly since that time including season ticket prices so I am challenging Grahams logic

Using Keith Todd as your evidence base; top trolling there, bravo...

 

[Lundan Cabbie]

Oddball, according to the season ticket figures I referred to there are almost as many u-18 and junior members (as part of a Family Membership) as there are over-65 concessions. Since 2012 there may be even more junior members given the family initiatives the Club offer. That is significant as they pay just over £5 per game which rather brings the overall average down somewhat.

Both Martyn Starnes and Michael Dunford are on the record as stating that the average net revenue per ticket is less than the £13 I quoted.

Graham thanks for your reply.I guess we will have to disagree on this one.Keith Todd and indeed Michael Dunford first time around have stated £15 as an average income and that too is on the record,and yes the club did have a fair number of junior greens even in those days possibly more than today.Tomorrow most of the crowd will be paying £24 to get in so am at a loss even with discounted tickets how you can suddenly drop to £13.....In addition we have we some of the highest match day prices in this league and with a large fan base as well currently around 10k this should leadto a very healthy match day income and contrary to what you say most clubs in this league rely on match day income for their survival.I just find it incomprehensible that Argyle are running at a loss.

This is from the current season's ST brochure.



If you take away the VAT an Adult Season Ticket holder is paying £13.58 per game. Concessions are paying £10.36 per game and kids, £3.47

Match day prices minus VAT are Adults £18.33 Concessions £14.16 Kids £7.50

Now back to fag packet maths.

If you have 5,000 season ticket holders paying £13.58 and 5,000 pay on the day fans at £18.33 that brings in just under £160k, an average spend per head of just shy of £16

If you consider that this is with ALL 10,000 paying ADULT RATES, you can see how Graham's figures are more likely to be truer than yours because when I visit HP I see an awful lot of people who are either under 21 or over 65 who have paid considerably less to get in.

 

[Biggs]

Oddball, you do realise that we’re talking about season tickets too?

I don’t know why you’re saying ‘most’ people are paying £24 when that isn’t remotely the case.

 

[Shankster]

My mate takes his lad as a carer, they pay £80 a year, in total
£80 for 2 season tickets