Not yet financially sustainable

[the corkscrew]

By sustainable does he mean self-sufficient?
I. E. We maintain a level of upper L1 or lower Championship, without the need for owners to inject cash.
How could this be possible? As our gates aren't going to put us there, and the Grandstand won't produce the amount of cash to be a game changer, the only way to achieve it is through the youth set up. Finding, nurturing, playing then eventually selling the best young players we can produce..then re-investing the profits is the only way to long term self-sufficiency in my opinion.
It's been a while since we produced a top youngster. Got to start happening again very soon.

 

[Guiri Green]

Blackburn - who were promoted last season - lost £17m spending 187% of their turnover on player wages.

Wolves lost £1m getting promoted.

Derby are reportedly losing £2m a month and haven't turned a profit in 9 years.

These are scary numbers for 3 sides with stronger attendances than ourselves.

I'm sure I read that it was £1M A WEEK for Wolves !

 

[Tugboat]

Blackburn - who were promoted last season - lost £17m spending 187% of their turnover on player wages.

Wolves lost £1m getting promoted.

Derby are reportedly losing £2m a month and haven't turned a profit in 9 years.

These are scary numbers for 3 sides with stronger attendances than ourselves.

What a corrupt way of running a business. Couldn’t give a toss about the owners but when the cracks begin to appear and the bankrolling stops then it’s the small business’s and ‘general workers’ that get hit hard.

 

[Guiri Green]

Blackburn - who were promoted last season - lost £17m spending 187% of their turnover on player wages.

Wolves lost £1m getting promoted.

Derby are reportedly losing £2m a month and haven't turned a profit in 9 years.

These are scary numbers for 3 sides with stronger attendances than ourselves.

What a corrupt way of running a business. Couldn’t give a toss about the owners but when the cracks begin to appear and the bankrolling stops then it’s the small business’s and ‘general workers’ that get hit hard.

Perhaps, a strong case for trying to be sustainable and not throwing the money at it as demanded by some. A collective understanding of where we're at and how we can work as one to go forward in sensible steps.

Alternatively, go along for the ride when some other sucker spends their own money to appease the supporters demands and 'ambitions' but then feel sorry for themselves and the little man when 'the bankrolling stops'.

 

[mervyn]

By sustainable does he mean self-sufficient?
I. E. We maintain a level of upper L1 or lower Championship, without the need for owners to inject cash.
How could this be possible? As our gates aren't going to put us there, and the Grandstand won't produce the amount of cash to be a game changer, the only way to achieve it is through the youth set up. Finding, nurturing, playing then eventually selling the best young players we can produce..then re-investing the profits is the only way to long term self-sufficiency in my opinion.
It's been a while since we produced a top youngster. Got to start happening again very soon.

Spot on.

 

[rsp4]

By sustainable does he mean self-sufficient?
I. E. We maintain a level of upper L1 or lower Championship, without the need for owners to inject cash.
How could this be possible? As our gates aren't going to put us there, and the Grandstand won't produce the amount of cash to be a game changer, the only way to achieve it is through the youth set up. Finding, nurturing, playing then eventually selling the best young players we can produce..then re-investing the profits is the only way to long term self-sufficiency in my opinion.
It's been a while since we produced a top youngster. Got to start happening again very soon.

Good post. A few clubs do this for income including Excretia (all be it they need tiny amounts being tin pot) and this has to be part of the business plan surely.

I actually don't blame DA for not using most of our youngsters because at the end of the day they have not been good enough. If the Academy steps up then this would provide income as well.

I think in our hearts we all know a sugar daddy is needed at the next level even with a strong set of foundations. Some of those figures quoted above are eye watering indeed. If that is the debt Blackburn had to get out of this division then that is truly scary. As for Derby, well that's madness.

 

[Biggs]

It is worth noting that you don't 'need' that money to reach the same result.

Just because Derby are losing £2m and are in the Championship play-offs, doesn't mean that's what's required to be at that level. It just means they're run badly.

Likewise with Blackburn, you don't need to spend 187% of your turnover on wages to get out of League 1 if you are run well with stability and a clear strategy.

It's often the lean and mean clubs with upward momentum that do far better on the pitch and balance sheets than these big, hulking, failing, unstable giants.

 

[Argylegames]

We were always in my memory lower second tier to upper third tier until we dropped into the fourth tier and needed Warknock and then Luggy to sort us out. We want to be back to that sort of level with the odd chance at a push for the top. But, we don't want to end up like Birmingham, or back where we were.

 

[Graham Clark]

Attendances even in League 1 are increasingly representing a smaller proportion of turnover. In addition, the ‘fag packet’ maths often overlook that for starters that 20% of the ticket revenues go straight to HM Treasury in VAT. They also overlook that Argyle have a high rate of concessions, both old and young that also reduce the net ticket revenue. The AFT published some figures in 2012 (see link below) that showed less than half of the 4,500 ‘members’ were full price season tickets.

Martyn Starnes was on the record a few years back as saying the average net revenue per ticket was around £11. If you say that since then, with some annual price increases that has increased to a net figure of around £13 that would be a reasonable assessment.

Taking our average attendance as 6,915 in our first season out of administration in 2011/2012 we increased in to 10,413 last season – an increase of around 50% in six seasons. That average equates to an increase in net revenue of 3,498 x 23 (home League games) x £13 (average net ticket revenue). That totals an increase in net gate revenue of £1,045,902. So an attendance increase over six seasons of around 50% equates to just over £1m in additional net revenue to the Club.

We can speculate how much the wage bill may have increased over those six seasons but for certain other costs would have risen and eaten away at the increased net revenue, without taking into account any of the grandstand redevelopment costs and catching up with much needed maintenance and improvement of other facilities.

Where the Club have definitely underperformed is in net transfer income and unbudgeted Cup run income over the last six seasons (Liverpool and the sale of the likes of Hourihane, Nelson and Purrington aside). We have not produced many young players into the first team. Neither have we improved players for resale at enhanced value. We also have underperformed in terms of hospitality income but this is now being addressed although the net benefits may be a little way off.
Many other League 1 clubs have benefitted from significant transfer income and the financial returns of lucrative cup runs without substantively relying on attendance income. I think we rank seventh on attendances but may have underperformed relatively on the other measures.

In addition, we are providing additional capacity and a massively improved facilities and hospitality offer as well as playing catch up on necessary measures such as the floodlights, the pitch, the ‘tannoy’ system plus I am sure a myriad of other unseen items.

The path to sustainability (income matching expenditure) is a painstaking one and is certainly not dependent solely on attendances but we are doing OK. Thankfully, we have an owner willing and able to fund us through this unsustainable period and communicate openly as the current guardian of the Club. The areas for improvement have been identified and openly expressed. We just have to ensure that we fully commit to them.

https://www.argylefanstrust.com/2012/09 ... mberships/

 

[Manadon Green]

At the previous Fan Forum, I think I recall Michael Dunford suggesting that £11.70 was the current average yield per ticket.

 

[The Doctor]

This story - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47667742 - currently on the BBC website shows the way that things are going in the Championship. Birmingham City have made losses in excess of £13m for 3 years and are about to be deducted points as a result. There must be a stack of other clubs waiting in line to be next...

 

[Lundan Cabbie]

This story - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47667742 - currently on the BBC website shows the way that things are going in the Championship. Birmingham City have made losses in excess of £13m for 3 years and are about to be deducted points as a result. There must be a stack of other clubs waiting in line to be next...

Nine points deducted with immediate effect.

 

[metroace]

An interesting podcast about finances in football in general and L1 and L2 in particular can be found here:

http://d3d4football.com/d3d4-podcast-extra-money-ball/

The blurb accompanying this podcast says:

"In a special D3D4 Pod James Richards is joined by Doctor Robert Wilson of Sheffield Hallam University to talk about the financial situation for clubs in League One & Two.

We look at the growing disparity, the need for a competitive league and discuss the downfall for the football elite should they continue to earn a disproportionate chunk of the wealth."

 

[oddball]

Attendances even in League 1 are increasingly representing a smaller proportion of turnover. In addition, the ‘fag packet’ maths often overlook that for starters that 20% of the ticket revenues go straight to HM Treasury in VAT. They also overlook that Argyle have a high rate of concessions, both old and young that also reduce the net ticket revenue. The AFT published some figures in 2012 (see link below) that showed less than half of the 4,500 ‘members’ were full price season tickets.

Martyn Starnes was on the record a few years back as saying the average net revenue per ticket was around £11. If you say that since then, with some annual price increases that has increased to a net figure of around £13 that would be a reasonable assessment.

Taking our average attendance as 6,915 in our first season out of administration in 2011/2012 we increased in to 10,413 last season – an increase of around 50% in six seasons. That average equates to an increase in net revenue of 3,498 x 23 (home League games) x £13 (average net ticket revenue). That totals an increase in net gate revenue of £1,045,902. So an attendance
increase over six seasons of around 50% equates to just over £1m in additional net revenue to
the Club.

We can speculate how much the wage bill may have increased over those six seasons but for certain other costs would have risen and eaten away at the increased net revenue, without taking into account any of the grandstand redevelopment costs and catching up with much needed maintenance and improvement of other facilities.

Where the Club have definitely underperformed is in net transfer income and unbudgeted Cup run income over the last six seasons (Liverpool and the sale of the likes of Hourihane, Nelson and Purrington aside). We have not produced many young players into the first team. Neither have we improved players for resale at enhanced value. We also have underperformed in terms of hospitality income but this is now being addressed although the net benefits may be a little way off.
Many other League 1 clubs have benefitted from significant transfer income and the financial returns of lucrative cup runs without substantively relying on attendance income. I think we rank seventh on attendances but may have underperformed relatively on the other measures.

In addition, we are providing additional capacity and a massively improved facilities and hospitality offer as well as playing catch up on necessary measures such as the floodlights, the pitch, the ‘tannoy’ system plus I am sure a myriad of other unseen items.

The path to sustainability (income matching expenditure) is a painstaking one and is certainly not dependent solely on attendances but we are doing OK. Thankfully, we have an owner willing and able to fund us through this unsustainable period and communicate openly as the current guardian of the Club. The areas for improvement have been identified and openly expressed. We just have to ensure that we fully commit to them.

https://www.argylefanstrust.com/2012/09 ... mberships/

Graham....I think your maths is way out.Tomorrow I am paying £19 for a concession ticket and even allowing for inclusive VAT that still equates to a price of around £16 and that is a concession ticket the full adult price is £24....making an average price of somewhere between the two....must be near £20 which is way above your £13 and whoever is quoting £11 is clearly a troll....and we are close to averaging 10k this season so the money is flowing in through the turnstiles and I find it hard to believe the club is not sustainable on those figures which make us the seventh best supported club in this division.

 

[Shankster]

You’re on a wind up lad but fair play to you hahahaha