Michael Mincberg Joins Argyle Board (head of US group investing £4m)

[Graham Clark]

Below is what the refurbishment looked like in March 2019 (Thank you GoS). It clearly illustrates the Lower Mayflower being reprofiled, the Upper Mayflower remaining in its existing configuration and the blank canvas that was the fit out of the ground floor hospitality and first floor offices, catering kiosks and toilets.

In fairness to all involved the retention of the virtually the same number of upper tiers seats ensured the maximum capacity possible which was the driving force towards trying to get to a final capacity (with the quadrants) of 20,000. The problem was that the replacement of the original flat back seats with the curved and rimmed seats used elsewhere reduced leg room. Under the Green Guide this was classed as replacement seating. The Lower Mayflower was new seating and so required to have the leg room and profile that it now enjoys.

A new roof may not have been in the original budget and the decision to house the Club offices at the rear of the Upper Tier was an understandable decision and was one that was originally approved by the City Council at the planning stage and apparently by the Safety Advisory Group too before construction and use.

All this was happening at a time when unexpected and exceptional costs were rising and eventually Simon Hallett had to provide the equity to complete the job so it could open and function. If we were starting from the same point it probably would have been better to demolish the whole stand and rebuild according to the new standards. The Club did not have that luxury as at the time of commencement when contracts were signed the funding was limited and negotiations with the contractor protracted. To get to the start line was a real and unexpected achievement at the time on what was the tightest of budgets.

That Simon Hallett and the Board are seeking to redress the issues of seating comfort and means of escape is highly commendable as I am sure many Club owners would recoil from spending the amount of money needed to achieve the required improvements. I think it will increase the capacity of the grandstand by 25% so there will be a return on the investment over time as well as the welcome improvement in seating and comfort standards.

As Simon and the Board are doing I would prefer to look forwards and avoid trying to apportion v blame elsewhere. What is done is done and decisions made at the time were probably made for the right reasons in an effort to keep what was after all a major construction project within budget.

 

[Andy B.]

Below is what the refurbishment looked like in March 2019 (Thank you GoS). It clearly illustrates the Lower Mayflower being reprofiled, the Upper Mayflower remaining in its existing configuration and the blank canvas that was the fit out of the ground floor hospitality and first floor offices, catering kiosks and toilets.

In fairness to all involved the retention of the virtually the same number of upper tiers seats ensured the maximum capacity possible which was the driving force towards trying to get to a final capacity (with the quadrants) of 20,000. The problem was that the replacement of the original flat back seats with the curved and rimmed seats used elsewhere reduced leg room. Under the Green Guide this was classed as replacement seating. The Lower Mayflower was new seating and so required to have the leg room and profile that it now enjoys.

A new roof may not have been in the original budget and the decision to house the Club offices at the rear of the Upper Tier was an understandable decision and was one that was originally approved by the City Council at the planning stage and apparently by the Safety Advisory Group too before construction and use.

All this was happening at a time when unexpected and exceptional costs were rising and eventually Simon Hallett had to provide the equity to complete the job so it could open and function. If we were starting from the same point it probably would have been better to demolish the whole stand and rebuild according to the new standards. The Club did not have that luxury as at the time of commencement when contracts were signed the funding was limited and negotiations with the contractor protracted. To get to the start line was a real and unexpected achievement at the time on what was the tightest of budgets.

That Simon Hallett and the Board are seeking to redress the issues of seating comfort and means of escape is highly commendable as I am sure many Club owners would recoil from spending the amount of money needed to achieve the required improvements. I think it will increase the capacity of the grandstand by 25% so there will be a return on the investment over time as well as the welcome improvement in seating and comfort standards.

As Simon and the Board are doing I would prefer to look forwards and avoid trying to apportion v blame elsewhere. What is done is done and decisions made at the time were probably made for the right reasons in an effort to keep what was after all a major construction project within budget.

View attachment 5020

As usual a great post.

 

[The Doctor]

They have 20% of the value of the club.

If the value of the club increases then their 20% increases.

If the assets of the club increase in value then their 20% increases, eg. If training facilities are improved, then the value of the club increases.

Promotion to the Championship assures an increase in the value of the club.

Promotion to the Premiership ensures a hundredfold increase in the value of the club.

Hence the value of their 20% increases as the value of the club increases.

The value of their 20% only really increases in value if they can find someone to sell it too at some point (although retaining it would also increase their capacity to borrow money from banks etc.)

 

[lunarjetman]

They have 20% of the value of the club.

If the value of the club increases then their 20% increases.

If the assets of the club increase in value then their 20% increases, eg. If training facilities are improved, then the value of the club increases.

Promotion to the Championship assures an increase in the value of the club.

Promotion to the Premiership ensures a hundredfold increase in the value of the club.

Hence the value of their 20% increases as the value of the club increases.

Argyle has never been a club that makes large profits. It often makes losses.
Even if the shares went up in value, the investors would only make money by selling their 20% stake. They would have to find somebody to buy them first- and then negotiate a price.
Or they take a dividend from the shares, which means taking money out of the club.

I'd like to hear what Hallett has to say about this. No disrespect to the PASOTI experts, but I don't think its as straightforward as some people are making out.

Hallett knows his onions and could probably give a clear answer on these matters.

 

[kernow19]

Either "Simon" or "Mr Hallett" would be nice.

 

[JannerinCardiff]

Is it not the fault of the construction company or the Architects? What I mean is there no recourse open to Argyle? Or did e bwgieewe sign off on the plans and then someone has noticed it is not fit for purpose?

Surely it should have been checked if the grandstand was fit for purpose before signing off??

Not pointing blame but I would have thought this would be the norm for a multi million pound project like the grandstand refurb ..

 

[FourMarkGreen]

Either "Simon" or "Mr Hallett" would be nice.

Hi Jane! How are you keeping these days?

 

[freddie2greens]

Just thinking outside of the box for a minute, but could the seats in the upper grandstand be replaced easier/cheaper with safe standing areas for both sets of fans with a small segregation area. This would make the Barn park end available to home fans in its entirety and potentially raising capacity for the bigger games. The attendances by away fans is nearly always disappointing apart from a handful of games each season so they can be tucked away in the corner of the upper grandstand relatively easily. Like I said I could be missing something very obvious but it could be a cheaper option of solving a couple of problems more economically?

Imo it is a little disappointing to see 20% of the club being sold to rectify the Grandstand problems and whoever is responsible should be sued if possible.

 

[Biggs]

Argyle has never been a club that makes large profits. It often makes losses.
Even if the shares went up in value, the investors would only make money by selling their 20% stake. They would have to find somebody to buy them first- and then negotiate a price.
Or they take a dividend from the shares, which means taking money out of the club.

I'd like to hear what Hallett has to say about this. No disrespect to the PASOTI experts, but I don't think its as straightforward as some people are making out.

Hallett knows his onions and could probably give a clear answer on these matters.

This is what would happen, I don't think there's any question whatsoever of them taking any profits. They've bought 20% of a club that is worth £20m. If/when the club is worth £30m, £50m or £100m through the investments and expertise they've added, that's their profit if/when they sell the stake. And by definition, the club will be even more attractive to other investors at that point.

Here's a small clip of one of the investors Rudy Cline-Thomas talking about 'investment exits' (I assume that means selling the stake) and being in it for the long haul (he mentions 15 years). This bloke was an early investor in companies like Zoom and Uber and specialises in sport, so he knows his onions.

Out of all the names on this list, he seems to have most interviews and info specifically about how he invests, so would recommend giving him a google.

 

[Graham Clark]

Surely it should have been checked if the grandstand was fit for purpose before signing off??

Not pointing blame but I would have thought this would be the norm for a multi million pound project like the grandstand refurb ..

The Safety at Sports Grounds General Certificate (the Safety Certificate) for Home Park was granted by the City Council on 29th October 2020 following completion of the grandstand. I think Home Park was closed to spectators at the time. My recollection is that once spectators were allowed back there was concern about congestion in the concourse and hence the decision to reduce capacity in the upper tier for safety reasons.

 

[Kentishgreen]

And let’s not forget if it wasn’t for Simon there would not have been any refurbishment at all and we’d have been left with a slowly decaying piece of old fashioned architecture. Sorry it’s not a perfect world.

 

[PL2 3DQ]

I wonder if all the recent early evening announcements from the club (new signings, new shirts etc) are timed for the American audience?
The announcements are usually at 7pm although there's some announcement on Sunday at 8pm regarding the third kit. Odd timings but it now makes sense.

SH did say the original announcement about the Argyle Green investment was moved from morning in the UK to 4.30pm for the Americans.

 

[MGM]

I find this thread interesting in the sense of a view about how our money has so far been spent.

Show me a company or people who don’t make mistakes. I mean look at Southend with the naming rights of their grandstand. You wouldn’t think someone in authority throughout that whole club wouldn’t of noticed the issue.

We have very professional people at our club. But we have a budget. And unfortunately you try and rinse every single pound you can out of the money you have but unfortunately this may mean that you have to make compromises. And that is what we did we the grandstand. Although those compromises have come with further issues.

The club has suffered like many companies through covid but unlike most they had a insurance against the pandemic. So l always see it as swings and roundabouts. We made mistakes but will also benefitted from smart planning about possible unforeseen circumstances.

We have to accept people make mistakes. Even smart people who have done mostly everything up to this point so well. I look at the Mikel Miller thread. Yes the guy is injury prone but he is also a class act. For a club like us it’s a calculated gamble. That might not seen smart but what do you do against clubs with much bigger budgets? You have to find alternative ways to close the gap and that means putting in place plans that aren’t always going to be successful.

Its easy to point the finger at people when your not the one making tough decisions. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If anyone thought we won’t make mistakes along the way then they living in another world. The key is how do you rectify those mistakes when they happen.

Life is a learning curve. And lm sure Simon Hallett and the rest of the PAFC board are learning as they go on this journey. Sometimes you have to suffer experiences, good or bad, to understand how to be more productive in the future.

 

[Pogleswoody]

And let’s not forget if it wasn’t for Simon there would not have been any refurbishment at all and we’d have been left with a slowly decaying piece of old fashioned architecture. Sorry it’s not a perfect world.

I moved from the Grandstand a few years ago. It was a great view and I was in the front row so easy access. The problem was that my seat was up on a step. The old wooden seat was 'ard as 'ell (remember cushions for hire?). But the old wooden seat was also sloping forwards and 'loose', every time I relaxed my legs I slid forward so had to keep my legs 'tense' for 90 minutes. Haven't been back since but those seats were not a good buy as a ST at the time!

 

[Biggs]

The article on Simon Hallett having the time of life, reminded me that he bought a 30% stake for £500k in 2016. Now investors have bought 20% of the club for £4m in 2022. Which unless I’m being really dim, means the club was valued at under £2m and now is valued at £20m (appreciate that the context of both investments were totally different).

That alone should give an indication of how the club can grow in value and investors see a return, through infrastructure investment and good management… and results on the pitch of course.