one of the worst substitutions

[Neilz]

from the moment he took off the brilliant fletcher shrewsbury moved upfield and i agree with swendies the equaliser was inevitable.

Cannot possibly agree that Fletcher was brilliant. The real problem was playing a small physically weak player up front alone. By all means play him in a two up front formation but on nis own he is too easily brushed aside by strong defenders and wins nothing in the air. He was not brilliant and never will be in the current 1 up front philosophy

We're you actually there, because the general consensus was he caused them all kinds of problems? I think we all agree that he has the potential to score a hat-full if played in a 2, but let's not take it away from a decent performance.

I was there Brian and sorry but he didn’t cause them any problems, probably the easiest afternoon two big centre backs are going to have this season, he ran after them and tried to pressure but they could pass round that all day. When blissett finally came on they realised they were actually in game.

 

[Pifom]

Maybe I should just avoid all Argyle message boards full stop at the moment. I expect it 'elsewhere' but virtually every thread here too just seems to be looking for any and every way to cast absolutely anything as negative, as a stick to beat someone with.

I've tried to bite my lip on this one (or should that be bite my fingers as i'm typing :think: ) but I can't. I appreciate the irony as i'm occasionally accused of being *MR* Righteous Indignation myself, but some of the posts on this thread are simply ridiculously high horsed, so high the riders must surely struggle to even see the ground beneath them.

At any club, at any level, a perfectly legitimate option when going ahead and having a lead to defend, ESPECIALLY when it's top v bottom is to park the bus. Bringing on a defender for an attacker is just part of that. It wasn't a massively left field decision, it is perfectly normal for any manager to do such a thing if circumstances dictate.

To read some of the astonished words typed on this thread though you'd think we'd substituted the goalkeeper for a second left winger or something. It's as if the concept of defending what you've got is now somehow alien to some posters.

It didn't work, clearly. But who is to say that by NOT making that decision Shrewsbury wouldn't have come at us just as strongly and got two or more for want of that extra body in defence?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but when the general underlying mood music of the pitchfork wielding mob right now is to look for fault first and consider objectivity and practicality later never, you're only ever going to find fault.

I can tell you several FAR worse substitutions...

Any and every time Paul 'kin Mariner brought on Kenny 'kin Cooper for a late cameo impression of an especially immobile Ent from Lond of the Rings.

Every time Mick Jones brought on either of the dwarfs Padi Wilson or Earl Jean and then 'went long' to chase a game :facepalm:

Every time Tony Pulis brought on Anthony Pulis last knockings when we were winning just so sonny-boy could pick up a win bonus (same nepotism but at least 'Oooh Ahh Sturrock Junior' coming on to hold the ball in the corner had a legitimate tactical point).

They were all diabolical, nonsensical substitutions that defeated the object of trying to get something from a game. Yesterday was just a legitimate and widely used tactical option that didn't happen to work, more often than not it would've.

Get a ferkin grip guys, the Green Army is losing the plot at the moment. It's like everyone has collectively decided that if something paints the manager, or a player, or the board, or the club in a bad light then 'game on'. Common sense, logic and objectivity can take a flying jump.

As a collective, we must surely be better than this. This mentality at the moment is awful.

Never mind the bollox, we got a point against the league leaders that not one of us thought we would. THAT'S a positive, let's take it and move on.

My comment wasn’t borne out of ‘hindsight’. As soon as I saw the subs board go up I was saying to anyone that wanted to listen ‘wtf is he doing!??’ Many of those around me agreed. How do so many people that professional managers/coaches sneer at because they aren’t in the game, know that what he did was suicidal in terms of losing the game when the ‘professionals’ couldn’t see it. For me, yesterday’s monumental flock up seriously brings into question his suitability for the job in League one.

How many times have you seen Mourinho do exactly the same thing. I’ve even seen him do it at the start of a game! Any number of other Premiership managers have parked the bus many times. We did it against Liverpool and Adams was even praised for it.

He did it against Liverpool from minute 1 and that was the gameplan end of story, there was no tactical decisions needed, everyone just had to defend and I guarentee nobody actually expected us to hold out before the game started. Its a bit different compared to being on top in a match and looking like the better team, against the team top of the league and then instead of trying to capitalise on that, you do the absolute opposite and allow a team with 6x more points than us to constantly attack you until they score, thats stupidity.

 

[X Isle]

Oh dear. Too many people have lost the plot. Perhaps a look at the league table would show what a tactical genius dunce* Adams obviously is.

*edited for conspicuous sarcasm.

And by extension one look at last season's L2 table at this time would show what a tactical dunce Tisdale was?

I am not an Adams apologist, I didn't want him and have struggled to warm to him, but I will only criticise where criticism is justified, whoever it is and irrespective of background circumstances. Here it is not justified and the background landscape is influencing judgements.

That belies poor judgement in my book. Go looking for faults, actively wanting to see faults, you'll find faults. Keep an objective level head and you'll see the clear difference between actual faults and correct decisions that just didn't come off.

PS - Phil, don't worry about it, everyone comes round to my way of thinking eventually :wink:

Thought you’d come around to mine!

I do, regularly, just not when you're there... b'dum tish :wink:

I do apologise but that was such a set up, and I am weak

 

[X Isle]

Oh dear. Too many people have lost the plot. Perhaps a look at the league table would show what a tactical genius dunce* Adams obviously is.

*edited for conspicuous sarcasm.

And by extension one look at last season's L2 table at this time would show what a tactical dunce Tisdale was?

I am not an Adams apologist, I didn't want him and have struggled to warm to him, but I will only criticise where criticism is justified, whoever it is and irrespective of background circumstances. Here it is not justified and the background landscape is influencing judgements.

That belies poor judgement in my book. Go looking for faults, actively wanting to see faults, you'll find faults. Keep an objective level head and you'll see the clear difference between actual faults and correct decisions that just didn't come off.

PS - Phil, don't worry about it, everyone comes round to my way of thinking eventually :wink:

what manager would you bring in please x-isle?

Erm, none, there's no vacancy.

 

[Presto]

from the moment he took off the brilliant fletcher shrewsbury moved upfield and i agree with swendies the equaliser was inevitable.

Cannot possibly agree that Fletcher was brilliant. The real problem was playing a small physically weak player up front alone. By all means play him in a two up front formation but on nis own he is too easily brushed aside by strong defenders and wins nothing in the air. He was not brilliant and never will be in the current 1 up front philosophy

We're you actually there, because the general consensus was he caused them all kinds of problems? I think we all agree that he has the potential to score a hat-full if played in a 2, but let's not take it away from a decent performance.

Yes I was there and while I accept the lad has great potential he lacks body strength and imo was comfortably nullified by their defence. On a number of occasions he was brushed off the ball. He lacks height and does not win anything in the air - not his fault but imo pretty stupid playing him in a 1 up front formation.

Would like to see him with Taylor when he returns but in the meantime he should not be playing as a sole up front striker.

 

[Lousy Pint]

Maybe I should just avoid all Argyle message boards full stop at the moment. I expect it 'elsewhere' but virtually every thread here too just seems to be looking for any and every way to cast absolutely anything as negative, as a stick to beat someone with.

I've tried to bite my lip on this one (or should that be bite my fingers as i'm typing :think: ) but I can't. I appreciate the irony as i'm occasionally accused of being *MR* Righteous Indignation myself, but some of the posts on this thread are simply ridiculously high horsed, so high the riders must surely struggle to even see the ground beneath them.

Please don't do that X'y, how would we all know what to think? :lol:
You are right, of course, a ridiculous overreaction to a not unreasonable substitution. It's just that we are not that good at defending anymore. But a good point and maybe, just maybe, a boost to get our season up and running (don't go and lose 5-0 at Ewood now lads please).

 

[999mattyg]

Maybe I should just avoid all Argyle message boards full stop at the moment. I expect it 'elsewhere' but virtually every thread here too just seems to be looking for any and every way to cast absolutely anything as negative, as a stick to beat someone with.

I've tried to bite my lip on this one (or should that be bite my fingers as i'm typing :think: ) but I can't. I appreciate the irony as i'm occasionally accused of being *MR* Righteous Indignation myself, but some of the posts on this thread are simply ridiculously high horsed, so high the riders must surely struggle to even see the ground beneath them.

At any club, at any level, a perfectly legitimate option when going ahead and having a lead to defend, ESPECIALLY when it's top v bottom is to park the bus. Bringing on a defender for an attacker is just part of that. It wasn't a massively left field decision, it is perfectly normal for any manager to do such a thing if circumstances dictate.

To read some of the astonished words typed on this thread though you'd think we'd substituted the goalkeeper for a second left winger or something. It's as if the concept of defending what you've got is now somehow alien to some posters.

It didn't work, clearly. But who is to say that by NOT making that decision Shrewsbury wouldn't have come at us just as strongly and got two or more for want of that extra body in defence?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but when the general underlying mood music of the pitchfork wielding mob right now is to look for fault first and consider objectivity and practicality later never, you're only ever going to find fault.

I can tell you several FAR worse substitutions...

Any and every time Paul 'kin Mariner brought on Kenny 'kin Cooper for a late cameo impression of an especially immobile Ent from Lond of the Rings.

Every time Mick Jones brought on either of the dwarfs Padi Wilson or Earl Jean and then 'went long' to chase a game :facepalm:

Every time Tony Pulis brought on Anthony Pulis last knockings when we were winning just so sonny-boy could pick up a win bonus (same nepotism but at least 'Oooh Ahh Sturrock Junior' coming on to hold the ball in the corner had a legitimate tactical point).

They were all diabolical, nonsensical substitutions that defeated the object of trying to get something from a game. Yesterday was just a legitimate and widely used tactical option that didn't happen to work, more often than not it would've.

Get a ferkin grip guys, the Green Army is losing the plot at the moment. It's like everyone has collectively decided that if something paints the manager, or a player, or the board, or the club in a bad light then 'game on'. Common sense, logic and objectivity can take a flying jump.

As a collective, we must surely be better than this. This mentality at the moment is awful.

Never mind the bollox, we got a point against the league leaders that not one of us thought we would. THAT'S a positive, let's take it and move on.

Well said. DA is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't by a section of the fan base. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

 

[Old Gunner]

I must confess I went 'oh no' when the substitution was made--this was based on previous experience. It could have worked but requires enormous discipline--essentially you need to hold that defensive formation as high up the pitch as you can and eliminate the opportunities to shoot either from open play or free kicks. What we all saw was Argyle slowly but surely retreating to a line about 25 yards from goal and then the shots started to come. A brief lapse of concentration allowed a (well taken) goal to be scored. My feeling for what it is worth is that what we were doing was working and the substitution changed the dynamic for the worse---not the worst substitution ever, but not the best.

 

[Old Gunner]

from the moment he took off the brilliant fletcher shrewsbury moved upfield and i agree with swendies the equaliser was inevitable.

Cannot possibly agree that Fletcher was brilliant. The real problem was playing a small physically weak player up front alone. By all means play him in a two up front formation but on nis own he is too easily brushed aside by strong defenders and wins nothing in the air. He was not brilliant and never will be in the current 1 up front philosophy

We're you actually there, because the general consensus was he caused them all kinds of problems? I think we all agree that he has the potential to score a hat-full if played in a 2, but let's not take it away from a decent performance.

Yes I was there and while I accept the lad has great potential he lacks body strength and imo was comfortably nullified by their defence. On a number of occasions he was brushed off the ball. He lacks height and does not win anything in the air - not his fault but imo pretty stupid playing him in a 1 up front formation.

Would like to see him with Taylor when he returns but in the meantime he should not be playing as a sole up front striker.

Agreed--I think what endeared him to the crowd was his effort. He was clearly not able to play to his strengths but gave it a hell of a go.

 

[Devonport Ender]

What we needed at that point was someone to hold the ball up front. While Fletcher did a job closing down their defenders he was unable to win many balls or hold it up and bring in our midfield. IF Adams had swapped him for Jervis or Blissett we wouldn't have given away the midfield and we would not likely have drawn the game

 

[jimsing]

All if's and but's DE. Who's to say if he hadn't have changed things, or changed things to your scenario, that we would not have lost 2/3-1 instead of drawing.

It's no good saying what MIGHT have happened. It didn't happen, and we can't change a thing.

Football's a funny old game, and doesn't always go the ways things are planned, or envisaged!

 

[Lesley Somerville]

Well yes but this is a forum for discussion. Which is what we're doing. Not much point if we just say, 'oh well, can't change it so might as well say nothing'.

 

[Ave IT]

Maybe I should just avoid all Argyle message boards full stop at the moment. I expect it 'elsewhere' but virtually every thread here too just seems to be looking for any and every way to cast absolutely anything as negative, as a stick to beat someone with.

I've tried to bite my lip on this one (or should that be bite my fingers as i'm typing :think: ) but I can't. I appreciate the irony as i'm occasionally accused of being *MR* Righteous Indignation myself, but some of the posts on this thread are simply ridiculously high horsed, so high the riders must surely struggle to even see the ground beneath them.

At any club, at any level, a perfectly legitimate option when going ahead and having a lead to defend, ESPECIALLY when it's top v bottom is to park the bus. Bringing on a defender for an attacker is just part of that. It wasn't a massively left field decision, it is perfectly normal for any manager to do such a thing if circumstances dictate.

To read some of the astonished words typed on this thread though you'd think we'd substituted the goalkeeper for a second left winger or something. It's as if the concept of defending what you've got is now somehow alien to some posters.

It didn't work, clearly. But who is to say that by NOT making that decision Shrewsbury wouldn't have come at us just as strongly and got two or more for want of that extra body in defence?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but when the general underlying mood music of the pitchfork wielding mob right now is to look for fault first and consider objectivity and practicality later never, you're only ever going to find fault.

I can tell you several FAR worse substitutions...

Any and every time Paul 'kin Mariner brought on Kenny 'kin Cooper for a late cameo impression of an especially immobile Ent from Lond of the Rings.

Every time Mick Jones brought on either of the dwarfs Padi Wilson or Earl Jean and then 'went long' to chase a game :facepalm:

Every time Tony Pulis brought on Anthony Pulis last knockings when we were winning just so sonny-boy could pick up a win bonus (same nepotism but at least 'Oooh Ahh Sturrock Junior' coming on to hold the ball in the corner had a legitimate tactical point).

They were all diabolical, nonsensical substitutions that defeated the object of trying to get something from a game. Yesterday was just a legitimate and widely used tactical option that didn't happen to work, more often than not it would've.

Get a ferkin grip guys, the Green Army is losing the plot at the moment. It's like everyone has collectively decided that if something paints the manager, or a player, or the board, or the club in a bad light then 'game on'. Common sense, logic and objectivity can take a flying jump.

As a collective, we must surely be better than this. This mentality at the moment is awful.

Never mind the bollox, we got a point against the league leaders that not one of us thought we would. THAT'S a positive, let's take it and move on.

Well said. DA is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't by a section of the fan base. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

I’ve avoided this thread so far – knowing the likely reaction from FIFA Champions league winning managers of PASOTI.

When he made the sub – I did inhale a bit and thought to myself “well a brave call – I’m just glad it’s not up to me.” If we’d stayed the way we were and had then conceded all hell would have broken lose (on here) about why we can’t “see a game out”. Doubtless a certain Mr Ainsworth would have been cited as the great tactician we need for “winning ugly” (see the next manager thread :facepalm: ) and how DA is out of his depth. The thing is in some ways it DID work. They didn’t carve us open, there wasn’t any panicked balls-ups as a result of intense pressure - indeed they didn’t have a decent chance until their player scored an absolute beauty. I was in-line and he curled it superbly around a crowd players in the box and beyond Letheren’s full stretched dive perfectly into the corner. YES – he could have been closed down sooner (he took about a second and a half to look up and pick his spot), YES he found the ‘hole’ between midfield and defence ………… but if that’s bad defending you’ll see a couple of dozen worse examples from multi-millionaire internationals every week in the Premiership. At that point I thought we were screwed and it would be a backs-to-the-wall effort to hang on for a point. But DA made another switch and we looked a real threat again had two very decent chances to win it - the game could have gone either way.

X-Isle – I will take issue with you on one thing. The GA isn’t “losing the plot”. For a team at the bottom of the league on such a bad run of recent results I thought the support was outstanding and responded to the team’s effort. At the end of the game the players (rightly) got a warm ovation from all sides of the ground and as I made my way down the steps I was happy to join in the cries of “AR-GY-LE” ringing around the ground. Don’t confuse the PASOTI echo-chamber of usual miserable sods with the bulk of normal supporters. There was a real feeling of positivity after the game.

 

[happydays69]

After Carey scored a great individual goal, that lifted the crowd that lifted the Players , Why oh why do you want to change things unless you have a injury or as in the case of Fletcher who ran his socks off but to no avail because he was left isolated and exhausted. so he should have replaced young Fletcher with Blissett who has the height to keep pressure on there defenders, but by bringing on Bradley we ended up with a back 5 sometimes 6 players across the edge off the Penalty Area, giving the midfield up and allowing Shrewsbury to push forward unchallenged this creating the openings.

But i'm afraid that is how Adams sets his team up ,to go out not to loose , rather than a team set out to win matches he picks wingers and plays them in midfield his midfielders you hardly see them in the opponents penalty area .
Last Year he got away with it , this season these teams have sussed out our system and if he does not change the system by pushing bodies forward we will be relegated.

 

[999mattyg]

After Carey scored a great individual goal, that lifted the crowd that lifted the Players , Why oh why do you want to change things unless you have a injury or as in the case of Fletcher who ran his socks off but to no avail because he was left isolated and exhausted. so he should have replaced young Fletcher with Blissett who has the height to keep pressure on there defenders, but by bringing on Bradley we ended up with a back 5 sometimes 6 players across the edge off the Penalty Area, giving the midfield up and allowing Shrewsbury to push forward unchallenged this creating the openings.

But i'm afraid that is how Adams sets his team up ,to go out not to loose , rather than a team set out to win matches he picks wingers and plays them in midfield his midfielders you hardly see them in the opponents penalty area .
Last Year he got away with it , this season these teams have sussed out our system and if he does not change the system by pushing bodies forward we will be relegated.

OMG! DA made the change after the Shrews made a double substitution and pushed 2 up front! This has been mentioned several times on this thread. He didn't just make a random decision! This decision was understandable. We can debate til we're blue in the face whether it was right or wrong but we were winning and it is a tactic that is regularly used at every level! The fact that we dropped deep was the main problem. Was this DA's doing? Who knows? I suspect it was situational and then a loss of structure which led to their goal!