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Sunderland 'Til I Die

Oct 5, 2003
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Devon
Slow and steady progression is fine but without a big push or commitment of some description we are very limited. I will be happy if we solidify in the 3rd tier and let the basement division pass into memory. Perhaps then our stock will rise. However, to get the talent necessary to genuinely make upward strides, making massive capital investment and funding a large payroll is the only way, especially the latter.
 

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Feb 14, 2010
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Green_Matt":2nz4pr9s said:
Slow and steady progression is fine but without a big push or commitment of some description we are very limited. I will be happy if we solidify in the 3rd tier and let the basement division pass into memory. Perhaps then our stock will rise. However, to get the talent necessary to genuinely make upward strides, making massive capital investment and funding a large payroll is the only way, especially the latter.

Oh yes, I should say the caveat is that stability is our USP at the moment, we'll probably need another one in the Championship!

Stability and long term vision CAN get you a good way though, if you keep your nerve. It's certainly something that most football clubs don't have.
 
May 16, 2016
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I read today of an injured Villa Player apparently ripping up his £50K Contract, it didnt stipulate if that was his Weekly, Monthly or Annual salary. Chances are it certainly wasnt the latter.

We've a long way to go to get anywhere.
 
Jan 27, 2012
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samjones":ew20cyow said:
Only way for a small team like Argyle to compete in the Championship these days is to move up the leagues with a youngish squad on decent contracts so the team gets better as they all mature. We can compete financially buying players in but at the same time we don't offer decent contracts or promote the youth.

If we ever got to the championship again we would be a yo yo club but at the moment we are more like a yo yo club between Div 3 & 4 which is under achieving IMHO

There are some clubs surviving in the Championship on Argyle sized gates (eg Preston, Millwall) and I am not sure they have all been bankrolled in the past. So its certainly possible to consolidate there for a few seasons. It would probably be a constant battle for survival though- but you never know. A good run of results could lead to 7th place and then there's a chance of a season in the Premier league. Its unlikely but not impossible.

Argyle are definately one of the bigger clubs at League One level- so reaching the Championship for at least a season is a very realistic aim in the short to medium term. League Two is punching well below our weight.

To become a real force at Championship level I think home gates closer to 20,000 a week are necessary- its strange how the club has never been able to attract high attendances when it is located in a decent sized city and has Cornwall and west Devon as its catchment area. Most Championship clubs seem to have lots of other big clubs on their doorstep- Argyle don't really have the same level of competition.
 
May 16, 2016
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gaspargomez":1k61mtxt said:
samjones":1k61mtxt said:
Only way for a small team like Argyle to compete in the Championship these days is to move up the leagues with a youngish squad on decent contracts so the team gets better as they all mature. We can compete financially buying players in but at the same time we don't offer decent contracts or promote the youth.

If we ever got to the championship again we would be a yo yo club but at the moment we are more like a yo yo club between Div 3 & 4 which is under achieving IMHO

There are some clubs surviving in the Championship on Argyle sized gates (eg Preston, Millwall) and I am not sure they have all been bankrolled in the past. So its certainly possible to consolidate there for a few seasons. It would probably be a constant battle for survival though- but you never know. A good run of results could lead to 7th place and then there's a chance of a season in the Premier league. Its unlikely but not impossible.

Argyle are definitely one of the bigger clubs at League One level- so reaching the Championship for at least a season is a very realistic aim in the short to medium term. League Two is punching well below our weight.

To become a real force at Championship level I think home gates closer to 20,000 a week are necessary- its strange how the club has never been able to attract high attendances when it is located in a decent sized city and has Cornwall and west Devon as its catchment area. Most Championship clubs seem to have lots of other big clubs on their doorstep- Argyle don't really have the same level of competition.

Maybe the lack of same level competition is part of the problem in attracting the regular big crowds required. City/ Pompey / Bristol games always attract larger attendance. Sounds daft, but, we lack a closer natural predator or prey.

We're World famous in Plymouth.
 
Nov 30, 2010
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Plympton
samjones":o9zbbgby said:
Only way for a small team like Argyle to compete in the Championship these days is to move up the leagues with a youngish squad on decent contracts so the team gets better as they all mature. We cant compete financially buying players in but at the same time we don't offer decent contracts or promote the youth.

If we ever got to the championship again we would be a yo yo club but at the moment we are more like a yo yo club between Div 3 & 4 which is under achieving IMHO
 
Apr 9, 2011
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IJN":33a08ltv said:
Exactly.

Daft comment JIC.

Look at the figures, look at the data, you have to be mad, to chuck money like that at PAFC.

Sad fact, IF we get in the CCC it'll be a very short visit in my view.
Agree entirely
 
Jan 27, 2012
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IJN":30vvd7hs said:
Exactly.

Daft comment JIC.

Look at the figures, look at the data, you have to be mad, to chuck money like that at PAFC.

Sad fact, IF we get in the CCC it'll be a very short visit in my view.

Not daft in my view.

I think Argyle does have potential to be sustainable in the Championship in the longer term- provided the club put some energy into trying to expand the fan base over a period of time. It may take a long time to build that up however- probably a generation. But things dont always have to stay as they have always been, which is a Plymouth mentality I think.

A season in the Championship is surely achievable in the short term- even if for one season. And if a good group of players (being paid top-end League One salaries) could shock everyone and finish 6th, then there is a remote chance of a single season in the Premiership. That could change everything.

However you analyse the situation I think Argyle have been punching below their weight in recent seaons (apart from last year perhaps). So the only way is up. At the very least, the club should be a top-half League One team with ocassional seasons in the Championship.

I couldn't support the club with any enthusiasm if I thought their ambition stopped at mid-table League One. That should be Torquay United's ambition, not Argyle's.
 
Oct 3, 2003
3,010
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Dundee
All the fuss about getting to the EPL is presumably nosing the realms of sports finance fantasies, and that's of zero interest to most including me, equally I don't wish to know what the local cinema manager's earning and how much the next blockbuster film reel costs upfront.

But I can't see how being in the second tier with Poolis type football and press conferences of have-nots yada yada would be any idea of achievement or fun. G Neville is a prize bell extremity obvs, but I think with the the youth, entertainment and winnable matches 'ingredients' quoted this week he has the list of three most common sports objectives correct in the 21C, and Argyle might have none of those fulfilled in second tier occupancy where you've the majority of others doped monetarily for a potential EPL assault and not a long stay in said second tier.

Lenin, Marx one of the communist cheeses, who said they'd not wish to stay in a club they're happy with. Pretty much that isn't it. I think Simon H might just get what L1 contentment could be, and that's enough for some, thank you.

To add, Sunderland fans over many years are the most deluded I've met bar none in England, way more so than Pompers. Only one of the two clubs north of the once border might compete on that front.
 
Sep 6, 2006
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Mike E":36820rfl said:
Balham_Green":36820rfl said:
Smaller clubs CAN compete at that level. Burton survived for a while. Brentford make a big profit every year due to excellent scouting and dealings in the transfer market. If we had an effective international scouting network rather than relying on cast offs from the likes of Falkirk we would do a lot better. That was a big part of our success under Sturrock.Udinese in Serie a with a small population and crowds have thrived for years on a similar model.

Brentfords situation is unique. Matthew Benham, their owner, is a gambling analyst, his whole way of doing business is based on calculations. He closed Brentford Accadamy three and half years ago to save an estimated £2m per year and relies on picking up other clubs rejects once they have been released from their youth systems.

I'm not sure this model would work at Argyle though, as Brentfords location disadvantage / advantage is the opposite to Plymouth. We are at an advantage that we have the opportunity to pick up talent at a young age in an isolated but large catchment area with very little competition, and then nurture them through our youth system without them being poached by bigger local clubs.

We are at a disadvantage in attracting the youth cast offs from other accadamys due to our location and as Loveargyles has pointed out the loneliness of a young player a long way from friends and family.

'Doing business based on calculations'. Shouldnt we be doing that! I agree we cant copy Brentford but my point was tapping in to the international market.
 
Oct 20, 2015
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Mark58":lvxz5bnr said:
For the past two evenings I have watched back-to-back episodes of what I consider to be the most fascinating and gripping of football fly-on-the-wall documentaries. Sunderland ’Til I Die (STID) - currently aired on Netflix - is a warts-and-all journey through Sunderland’s 2017/2018 season in the Championship and I am sure that no one reading this post will consider it to be a spoiler if I reveal that it concluded with the Black Cats running out of lives and being relegated. What a result for the documentary makers, though! I have no doubt that the project was undertaken in the expectation that the ‘fallen giant', just relegated from the Premier League, would be pushing for promotion back into the promised land. They surely had no idea that their agreement with the club for ‘access all areas’ would have provided such a wealth of drama, pathos and car-crash viewing in what proved to be a further slip into the abyss of league football - the dreaded League One! If you haven’t seen it yet I urge you to do whatever it takes to access what I feel is the best football documentary I have ever seen.

BUT, from an Argyle perspective I have to admit that it put the fear of God in me! For me, comparisons with all things Home Park are impossible to avoid when seeing, watching, reading or thinking about any football related subject. And the parallels in STID were spookily similar to our own ignominious demise following relegation from the Championship a few years ago. Like Sunderland, we had financial difficulties (understatement!) related to a wage bill out of kilter with our new surroundings and, also like Sunderland, this resulted in a second successive relegation. There the similarities cease, however. I know everything in life is relative - even more so at different levels in the world of football - but some of the information revealed in STID was eye-wateringly staggering. The financial numbers being bandied about by the Sunderland CEO made any comparison with Argyle laughable. It was like comparing the most expensive Dom Perignon champagne with a magnum of Prosecco from Lidl (other supermarkets are available).

Apart from the actual infrastructure of Sunderland AFC - the 49,000 state-of-the-art stadium with the entrance halls, backstage offices, kitchens etc looking like they should be in a five-star hotel, the vast training grounds with nail-scissor-manicured pitches, the treatment rooms that would not be out of place in a Harley Street clinic - the money associated with the business of football was the most jaw dropping. I was still drooling with thoughts of what Argyle would be like with this financial background, so I might have missed the actual figures involved but the CEO, when being asked about the impact that relegation from the Premiership had had, said something about instead of ‘earning’ £100 million, they would only get £40 million in the Championship. Thinking of Argyle and the sacrifices and penny-pinching that have involved the outlay of a ‘mere' £6 million on building a complete stand I nearly rolled around the carpet wetting myself at the CEO's earnest and pained expression when using the word ‘only’. And then there were the wages. A lot of play was made of Jack Rodwell, who had been signed on a reported £70,000 a week, five-year contract. Someone must have thought that to be a good idea at the time but had not considered writing in a release clause in the event of relegation. Thus, Rodwell was shown as some recalcitrant bogeyman who wasn’t particularly interested in turning out for Sunderland on a Saturday afternoon but, funnily enough, was quite prepared to sit tight and count down his contract as the limitless tenners floated down around him, unceasingly. It had me in mind of those Argyle players on ‘long term’ contracts during the administration months. Thankfully, a lot of them were prepared to ‘do the decent thing’ and negotiate a settlement that didn’t bite the hand that had previously fed them.

The most terrifying thought, however, was how the money spilling around the Championship (and the seeming necessity of being bankrolled in order to compete there) bears as much of a resemblance to Argyle’s financial muscle as a manned flight to Pluto. In a deeply depressing insight I realised that as things stand now (and, admittedly, they could change for the better - possibly?) we wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance of competing on equal financial terms with the likes of Villa, Derby, Leeds, Forest, Rangers, the Sheffields etc etc. - even if we were to storm League One. In the earlier stages of my Argyle life the holy grail was always considered to be the top flight (the First Division) and it was tantalisingly (and fleetingly) a possibility under the guidance of Dave Smith and even Holloway. At that time our natural and relatively comfortable surroundings appeared to be the second tier. Sadly, we now seem to have settled for the norm being the third tier (hopefully!) with as much likelihood of successfully competing at the next level up as I used to dream about as a younger man. Still, never mind, I shall be out there on Saturday cheering on my team against the might of Accrington Stanley and thinking that things could always be worse...

Great post. I saw this advertised on Netflix and considered watching it but I haven't- yet.

The things you are saying about the gulf in finance between L1 and Championship are very familiar and I myself wrote a post about Championship level players (and their price) a year ago or so, when promotion to Championship was a (distant) possibility.

The whole football pyramid is so top-heavy, and I can't understand the situation of any club handed £100m that can fail that spectacularly. I must admit I struggle to understand the concept of parachute payments, which seems to reward failure.

I look forward to watching STID over the Xmas break and thanks for the recommendation.
 
Brilliant programme, well worth a watch. The difference between Sunderland fans and Argyle fans, the passion and intensity of the dismay shown by the Sunderland fans really let the players know it wasn’t good enough. Today a cross striaight into touch, and a miss from 3 yards was still met by ripples of applause at Home Park.
 

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Oct 31, 2010
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I enjoyed the series, it gave a good insight into the day to day running of a football club.
Much was made of the loyalty of the Sunderland fans and the distances they travel but we travel just as far, football fans everywhere are just as loyal and just like Sunderland we suffered back-to-back relegations with the added misery of administration. But we are not box office enough. There's a story to be told of our recent history, just on a smaller scale.

The facilities at the SoL and the training ground are amazing and light years ahead of ours.

The downside was there were no post-match dressing room footage and the CEO fancied himself as a bit of a rock star.
 
Oct 18, 2010
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St Judes
Just watched it. Unbelievable underachievement with the team they had, I think they should've been pushing to win the league. Think it was harsh to sack Grayson when compared to Adams who went through a much stickier spell and survived. The CE came off really awfully in it, seemed to have a bad attitude, and stabbed Grayson in the back.

As always you feel sorry for the fans put through it all, but overall a very good documentary.
 
Mar 15, 2007
5,303
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Plymouth
r4h4al":1fpwajce said:
Just watched it. Unbelievable underachievement with the team they had, I think they should've been pushing to win the league. Think it was harsh to sack Grayson when compared to Adams who went through a much stickier spell and survived. The CE came off really awfully in it, seemed to have a bad attitude, and stabbed Grayson in the back.

As always you feel sorry for the fans put through it all, but overall a very good documentary.

Really? I think Martin Bain comes across well given the difficulty he's facing. He's got to rebuild the club, with no investment, with a badly assembled, unbalanced playing squad, on the back of a relegation with immense pressure from the fans and a manager that is only there because nobody else would touch the job. No easy feat.

Annoyingly I thought Chris Coleman came across really well too, as much as I disliked him during his spell with Wales.