Stadium Improvements (including scoreboard)

[FourMarkGreen]

I thought it useful to revisit what has been approved under Phase 2 (under the amended planning permission granted in March 2019). The increased capacity of the two quadrants approved was 1,056 (by the dressing rooms) and 1,100 (by the Devonport End). It is a lot of roof and cantilever structure for a relative small increase in capacity. The extension of the grandstand along the full length of the pitch did not include additional seating, (see elevation below) although this can be addressed with revised plans.
View attachment 2230
The roof for each quadrant will provide the structural stability for the lightweight transparent roof extension over the lower tier. The quadrant roof at the Devonport End will also have to be extended to cover over the steps with no increase in seating.
View attachment 2231 View attachment 2232

So it is not just a question of 'filling in' the corners. In addition, the club are considering the options for the reconfiguration of the upper tier grandstand seating. The most likely solution is a lightweight overdecking reprofiling of the concrete tiers to provide a better seating arrangement to meet guidelines as the seat backs cannot be changed to improve leg room. I believe Liverpool and Ascot race course have used this solution. It will reduce the upper tier capacity slightly as it may result in the loss of a row or two.

Then you have to add the cost of reorganising the Grandstand concourse which will require the location of some replacement new build offices elsewhere. Within the ground we also have the hope / expectation of a new scoreboard / TV screen. This is all without any potential extension to the dressing room area which from the views on Matchday Moments look too small with equipment located in the corridors and the replacement of over 12,000 seats in the 'horseshoe' and the cost of the potential future conversion of some seating to safe standing. Have the club got an onside gym or do we still rely on the Life Centre?

Outside the ground the club are proposing an 87 space car park on Higher Home Park with an extensive surface water drainage scheme, external lighting, landscaping and access road., There is also the resurfacing and bollards for pedestrian safety of the area outside of the club shop and ticket office.

It is a long list of improvements required to get the stadium and its environs to a Championship standard. The Board have an obvious commitment to work through all that is necessary to achieve it and have made good progress already. Some of it will very lumpy financially and can only be undertaken when there is a degree of certainty that it will reap some financial reward albeit over an extended time period. The important thing is that the desire and commitment is there to achieve it.

Not saying it's necessarily a good idea, but presumably it would be technically possible to put seating in the two corners as above without extending the existing roof at all. Subject to planning, safety certification etc.

This would be a cheaper option, but all the new corner seats would be out in the open - along with the current Mayflower Lower seating. Doesn't seem a great long-term solution tbh.

 

[Brechin Hedge]

'potential extension to the dressing room area which from the views on Matchday Moments look too small'

so with the upper grandstand 50 per cent closed as seats not fit for purpose, the offices to be demolished as the concourse is too narrow the issue of the dressing rooms designed at the minimum permitted size has now been acknowledged.

wonder if the project management team for the initial refurb will be engaged for the refurbishment of the refurbishment???

 

[Pilgrims Progress]

How tall are you out of interest? It’s not right that fans can’t sit comfortably after paying for a seat. The club obviously agree.

I sat in the Upper Mayflower not long after its reopening to watch the Argle ladies play at Home park for the first time, not only did I find the seats cutting into my knees when the person in front
moved, but I was also shocked to see how much they had narrowed the concourse. There were only
about 500 fans up there and at halftime, there was some congestion my thoughts were I would hate to have to get out of here if there was an emergency. I watched the second half from the lower Mayflower which was much better. I have ever since gone back to the Lyndhurst and although the roof leaks it's much more comfortable.

 

[UptheTamar]

Yep it's all the things you don't think about, that are the niggly and costly things. There's a hell of a lot to do.

I'd forgotten about the dressing rooms, I think on reflection they are too small. Not necessarily the dressing rooms themselves, but all modern Championship and Premier League stadiums would have warm-up areas and a gym, it seems mad to be having exercise bikes effectively in the tunnel area.

Long shot but I can see the Bobby's Garden area being developed to include a hospitality area that could include offices, as I think the club may have looked at the success of the GTs and grandstand hospitality and think it may justify the expense... certainly moreso than just seating. It could just be a building similar to the Burnley one below, that doesn't need a proper cantilever roof etc.

Absolutely no idea though!!

That looks great. I wonder if that could work well as an extra tier on the Green Taverners building.

 

[Biggs]

'potential extension to the dressing room area which from the views on Matchday Moments look too small'

so with the upper grandstand 50 per cent closed as seats not fit for purpose, the offices to be demolished as the concourse is too narrow the issue of the dressing rooms designed at the minimum permitted size has now been acknowledged.

wonder if the project management team for the initial refurb will be engaged for the refurbishment of the refurbishment???

I'm not sure why the project management team is mentioned so often, as they would just be carrying out the plans. Which they appear to have done, rather than accidentally making the concourse too small or forgetting to put a gym into the dressing room complex. With the caveat that perhaps these issues could have been raised by them.

But the main issue was the plans in the first place that were clearly trying to get the best possible value for money at a time when we barely had any money, and the crumbling grandstand facilities needed to be replaced ASAP. We now have the cash for 'nice to haves' that we didn't at the time the plans were being drawn up.

 

[xmastree]

On what logic could I possibly be advocating a 25,000 capacity never mind an 80,000 one?
Anything more than filling in the corners is pie in the sky unless we made it to the Premier league and I am not advocating anything more than that. Filling in the corners will give us little more than 19,000 usable seats which is just over 2,000 more, not the 6,000 figure you have bandied about.
With a growing fanbase and unbudgeted income of over a million this season along with the insurance windfall I don't see how it would put the club in debt or in any financial jeopardy to at least consider making a start with one of the two corners, preferably Bobby's Garden first.
With a current fanbase of 12,400 which should grow further by the end of the season with some attractive games still to come I don't think 19,000 or even 18,000 is an unrealistic aim. In the 2nd tier we will have a thousand extra away supporters, sometimes double that and home support with the ever improving match day experience and facilities should see an increase in home fans in the home sections compared to our last spell in the Championship.
As I see it the financial burden is not huge and one good transfer fee could make it even more feasible.

People talk of "the insurance windfall" as if we won the lottery. However it is compensation for what we lost out on through that period of Covid. Great to have, when most clubs didn't insure, but I don't see it as a bonus pot in the way many seem to.

 

[The Doctor]

I'm not sure why the project management team is mentioned so often, as they would just be carrying out the plans. Which they appear to have done, rather than accidentally making the concourse too small or forgetting to put a gym into the dressing room complex. With the caveat that perhaps these issues could have been raised by them.

But the main issue was the plans in the first place that were clearly trying to get the best possible value for money at a time when we barely had any money, and the crumbling grandstand facilities needed to be replaced ASAP. We now have the cash for 'nice to haves' that we didn't at the time the plans were being drawn up.

This may all be the case but it does seem a bit tragic that just a couple of years after several million £ were spent on upgrading the Grandstand it is necessary (or desirable) to spend another big slice of money to undo/redo a fair chunk of that work. I guess it is mostly about timing but I can't really believe that many of the issues that have been identified with the project couldn't have been identified at the outset. Some of them seem pretty fundamental/basic to me.

Anyway, it's great that money is being spent on the infrastructure and hopefully all of the various improvements will really help bring fans to games and generate income for the club.

 

[Guiri Green]

I'm not sure why the project management team is mentioned so often, as they would just be carrying out the plans. Which they appear to have done, rather than accidentally making the concourse too small or forgetting to put a gym into the dressing room complex. With the caveat that perhaps these issues could have been raised by them.

But the main issue was the plans in the first place that were clearly trying to get the best possible value for money at a time when we barely had any money, and the crumbling grandstand facilities needed to be replaced ASAP. We now have the cash for 'nice to haves' that we didn't at the time the plans were being drawn up.

I think it's an attempt to smear somebody.

You're right, the Project was to build to the designs the architects came up with. Build Project Managers coordinate and oversee that build. The design project team are the ones to blame. Wasn't there some fan input to that ?

 

[IJN]

No that was GAGWG. Green Army Grandstand Working Group.

We had no input to the design whatsoever.

That was left to the people who were paid.

 

[The Doctor]

No that was GAGWG. Green Army Grandstand Working Group.

We had no input to the design whatsoever.

That was left to the people who were paid.

This is quite intriguing. If the GAGWG had no input whatsoever into the design then what was its purpose? That's the only thing I would have thought it would do - help to inform the design... I guess you mean that the GAGWG had no control over the decisions made and that it just provided views and ideas that could potentially inform the design if they were listened to? It'd be quite interesting to know whether the issues of legroom and concourse size were raised by the GAGWG at any point. I only say 'quite' because it's all water under the bridge now.

 

[IJN]

Interesting Tim, I can remember no time when legroom was discussed, as it was assumed that what was acceptable before would be acceptable after. Big problem was that the seats were moulded plastic and I don't think that was taken into consideration.

Certainly the concourse was brought up on more than one occasion as the answer was 'it is what it is'. No helpful but towards the end of the project, that was the answer to a lot of our questions.

 

[MGM]

Was there that much leg room in the grandstand before the refurbishment took place?

I doubt the space would of got smaller. As surely that would of created alarm bells.

And tbh before all the works l never really saw anyone mention leg room issues in the grandstand.

When you get on buses and trains these days and sit next to the window the leg room is never fantastic. Your knee normally hits the plastic of the sit in front. Yet it’s manageable.

Your never unfortunately going to have perfect situations especially inside a grandstand built donkey years ago. Still glad they kept it though. It gives HP some character that some shiny, soulless new grounds don’t have.

 

[Willis88]

Was there that much leg room in the grandstand before the refurbishment took place?

I doubt the space would of got smaller. As surely that would of created alarm bells.

And tbh before all the works l never really saw anyone mention leg room issues in the grandstand.

When you get on buses and trains these days and sit next to the window the leg room is never fantastic. Your knee normally hits the plastic of the sit in front. Yet it’s manageable.

Your never unfortunately going to have perfect situations especially inside a grandstand built donkey years ago. Still glad they kept it though. It gives HP some character that some shiny, soulless new grounds don’t have.

Isn't the issue that the seat backs have gone from a solid, flat wood and are now a flexible, lipped plastic?

What is there now is very different to what was there before and probably overlooked in testing as it wasn't an obvious issue

 

[HC Green]

I think it's an attempt to smear somebody.

You're right, the Project was to build to the designs the architects came up with. Build Project Managers coordinate and oversee that build. The design project team are the ones to blame. Wasn't there some fan input to that ?

A Project Manager by their job title manages the project during its construction/development that he/she has been appointed to manager. He/she has no input into the design or specification of that project.

 

[Guiri Green]

A Project Manager by their job title manages the project during its construction/development that he/she has been appointed to manager. He/she has no input into the design or specification of that project.

Which is what I said isn't it?