Plymouth Argyle Transfer Rumour Round-up

[Paranoid Android]

Thing is Mr Android, if he sticks with a back 4 he has to recruit 3-4 centre halves AND 3-4 proper full backs so the recruitment argument is flawed.

He will go to 3 anyway, its the style he has set out to play with at all levels, he only went to 4 when he had a player shortage and it didn't stem the flow of goals, as well as restricting our attacking play and dragging the two centre midfielders further back.

I was surprised that he didn't make more use of the two defensive midfielder ploy which he used at times in league 2 and early last season when he wanted to make things tighter. It's a relatively easy to make tactical tweak mid-game. It seemed to disappear when he started to use Grant wide when he lost G Cooper or maybe Camara was asked to do it and it just didn't appear to be happening.

Without the covid restrictions this window should be interesting.

No, the arguement isn’t flawed. How many ball playing CBS do you think are available to Argyle at league 1 standard or above? My arguement is with 4atb we don’t need ball carrying CBs to bring it out and distribute. They’ll have 2 holding mids or the full backs to short pass to.

We already have law, edwards, Conor grant who have and can play as right and left backs. We have one CB - Tomlinson.

I’d suggest there will be more full backs available in the market than good CBs, for our budget.

Add to that, as others have said in the past, nobody at the top end of the league plays with 3atb. The top 6 don’t. It’s too easy to press them unless they are top quality ball players. As evidenced last season. My opinion.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

The question is given the budget we have can we recruit the type of personnel to play football from the back effectively.

You could argue MK Dons eventually got it right this season. However, Ethan Laird the Man Utd player was a great success story. However, he isn’t their player so effectively now they have to plug that gap next season.

My question would be did Watts or Opoku ever play in a back 3 before they came to Argyle. Laird would know that right back postion from his coaching at Utd. See this is where l feel sorry for Opoku.

Here is an interview he did for Accrington over 12 months ago.

https://www.accringtonstanley.co.uk/news/2019/december/opoku-im-happy-to-be-back-with-the-lads/

The Fulham loanee signed originally as a centre-back, but the 21-year-old admits that he is enjoying playing as a left-back for the Reds.

"Growing up I've played as a left-back a lot, but then I grew and turned into a centre-back.

"I've got the attributes of a left-back, as I like to get forward and it's fun going forward, but I enjoy defending as well."

Opoku has already picked up seven yellow cards during his loan spell, with the defender admitting that manager John Coleman has spoken to him about his disciplinary record.

Here is a guy that last season his disciplinary was highlighted. Playing the middle of a back 3 the main quality you need is defensive discipline. Opoku said he loves getting forward. Perfect surely for LWB and yet we put him as CB. We could see as the season unfolded he didn’t have the discipline Coleman talked about to play CB.

You got to put players in their best position that would suit them. So far lm not seeing that done with numerous players. Coleman obviously didn’t think he was a CB as he played him at LB for Accrington.

A good manager looks at a player and finds a role in the team that impacts the team in a positive way.

My fear is how many of the people we bring in has ever played in a 3ATB system. Especially at our level. They maybe good players, but can they adapt to what maybe a totally foreign system to them.

If you play a 4ATB system at least if your a right back, you know your job. How many right backs in league 1 or 2 would make great wing backs? It’s a totally different role where you need pace and energy to get up and down that pitch as your providing the team width. You need to be good on the ball to supply the crosses but great defensively to cover in behind you. A right back always has someone ahead of him. Always has support.

If anyone has seen Lamptey from Brighton you see the attributes a RWB needs. They aren’t easy to find. Especially at Argyle’s footballing level and budget.

 

[The Doctor]

My fear is how many of the people we bring in has ever played in a 3ATB system. Especially at our level. They maybe good players, but can they adapt to what maybe a totally foreign system to them.

If you play a 4ATB system at least if your a right back, you know your job. How many right backs in league 1 or 2 would make great wing backs? It’s a totally different role where you need pace and energy to get up and down that pitch as your providing the team width. You need to be good on the ball to supply the crosses but great defensively to cover in behind you. A right back always has someone ahead of him. Always has support.

I made this point here a couple of months ago, namely that it is really difficult to recruit players to fit into a 3-5-2 system when hardly any other clubs use it. Not only might they be unfamiliar with the formation and so struggle to adjust to it but also they might be put off joining the club in the first place if they have offers from other teams promising to play them in the position they have always played. It is perhaps telling that at Bury, Ryan Lowe converted Nicky Adams from midfield into a right wing back (I think) and then at Argyle he has used several midfielders as wing backs (Cooper, Grant, Edwards) and even a striker (Moore). This suggests that the kind of players needed for these roles at our level just don't exist.

 

[demportdave]

I think there is some exaggeration on here of what is required of a ball playing centre back. We don't need a Koeman, Van Dijk, David Luiz... Yes they can all spray a 70 yard pass to the forward, which is great, but that's not the level we are demanding.

We need centre backs who can play quick passes vertically into the midfield or into the forwards feet if they come short, or are at the very least comfortable on the ball when pressed. There are plenty of these available in the lower leagues. The only other requirement is that when they do go long into the channel, the ball stays on the pitch.

Kell Watts was good enough on the ball, he was very comfortable bringing it out of Defence and did it to great effect earlier in the season. He's no superstar is he? Unfortunately he was also fairly bad at the basic aspects of defending, which means he's not the answer.

A good example is Sheffield United's central defenders. They used the overlapping centre backs to great effect up until this season. All comfortable passers and all decent on the ball. Some of them had come all the way up to the PL from League One. Basham, Egan and O'Connell... hardly big names are they?

I agree with most of your requirements, Nobby but, for me, the big essential is that they need to be strong and dominating in the air at both ends of the pitch. Like, most recently, Sonny Bradley.

At League 1 level, strong and dominant in the air is way more important than being "comfortable on the ball". Lowe's supposed ball-playing defenders conceded 80 goals, about three-quarters of which were pretty poor defensively more so than they were good offensively.

The ideal pairing would be Coughlan as a right-footer and Bradley as a left-footer. I'd have 50p with anyone that with those 2, we wouldn't concede 80 goals and Mike Cooper would look even better behind them as well.

However, as good as they are/were as defenders who could also pass the ball to a green shirt, they would never be described as ball-players.

On further reflection, Dave; a Bradley type with Coughlan as our defensive coach would be a good shout.

Davie, you are one of a number of fans who have suggested that we need a defensive Coach.

I don't think Lowe would ever want one, especially if he wants to play with 3 at the back bringing the ball out from our own box.

Because of the way they have to join in the play with the rest of the team, I'm not sure you could Coach the Back 3 separately in the way that you could with a flat Back 4, where the requirements are more straightforward and based mainly on defending as a unit.

 

[East End Green]

You got to put players in their best position that would suit them. So far lm not seeing that done with numerous players.

A good manager looks at a player and finds a role in the team that impacts the team in a positive way.

My fear is how many of the people we bring in has ever played in a 3ATB system. Especially at our level. They maybe good players, but can they adapt to what maybe a totally foreign system to them.

If you play a 4ATB system at least if your a right back, you know your job. How many right backs in league 1 or 2 would make great wing backs? It’s a totally different role where you need pace and energy to get up and down that pitch as your providing the team width. You need to be good on the ball to supply the crosses but great defensively to cover in behind you. A right back always has someone ahead of him. Always has support.

If anyone has seen Lamptey from Brighton you see the attributes a RWB needs. They aren’t easy to find. Especially at Argyle’s footballing level and budget.

All fair points. My question is, to what extent is 3-5-2 dictated by the need/desire to accommodate an exciting, creative player who is neither a midfielder nor a winger nor a striker? How do you fit Mayor into a 4-4-2? He's not a classic central midfielder and he's wasted on the wing. Lowe likes two up top and our strikers so far don't look like they can play the lone striker role effectively so that rules out 4-4-1-1 or a variation of that. 4-3-3/4-3-1-2 makes us play narrow when almost all our joy last season came from moving the ball out wide. There'll either need to be a total revamp of playing style and approach (not impossible with 10 new players having to come in) or it'll be 3-5-2 again.

(Assuming Mayor signs again, of course.)

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

My fear is how many of the people we bring in has ever played in a 3ATB system. Especially at our level. They maybe good players, but can they adapt to what maybe a totally foreign system to them.

If you play a 4ATB system at least if your a right back, you know your job. How many right backs in league 1 or 2 would make great wing backs? It’s a totally different role where you need pace and energy to get up and down that pitch as your providing the team width. You need to be good on the ball to supply the crosses but great defensively to cover in behind you. A right back always has someone ahead of him. Always has support.

I made this point here a couple of months ago, namely that it is really difficult to recruit players to fit into a 3-5-2 system when hardly any other clubs use it. Not only might they be unfamiliar with the formation and so struggle to adjust to it but also they might be put off joining the club in the first place if they have offers from other teams promising to play them in the position they have always played. It is perhaps telling that at Bury, Ryan Lowe converted Nicky Adams from midfield into a right wing back (I think) and then at Argyle he has used several midfielders as wing backs (Cooper, Grant, Edwards) and even a striker (Moore). This suggests that the kind of players needed for these roles at our level just don't exist.

People keep saying if we get good players we will get better.

Look at Camara. Went from CM in a 3ATB to a RM at 4ATB and didn’t suit him.

We already have some good players at the club. Despite what l say about Mayor’s lack of end product he is still a good player. The problem is where we play him and players like George Cooper.

Next season isn’t about recruitment. It’s about the system we play and putting people in a position that suits them. If G Cooper goes back to playing LWB because Lowe can’t put him anywhere else in the team because he won’t change then l feel it will be the beginning of the end.

I don’t have a problem with 3ATB. I just wish we were more flexible with it. For example, next season why not have just one forward and G Cooper and Mayor playing to the left and right of that one player. This then gives Argyle more width, plays our creative players further forward where they don’t have to do defensive duties.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

You got to put players in their best position that would suit them. So far lm not seeing that done with numerous players.

A good manager looks at a player and finds a role in the team that impacts the team in a positive way.

My fear is how many of the people we bring in has ever played in a 3ATB system. Especially at our level. They maybe good players, but can they adapt to what maybe a totally foreign system to them.

If you play a 4ATB system at least if your a right back, you know your job. How many right backs in league 1 or 2 would make great wing backs? It’s a totally different role where you need pace and energy to get up and down that pitch as your providing the team width. You need to be good on the ball to supply the crosses but great defensively to cover in behind you. A right back always has someone ahead of him. Always has support.

If anyone has seen Lamptey from Brighton you see the attributes a RWB needs. They aren’t easy to find. Especially at Argyle’s footballing level and budget.

All fair points. My question is, to what extent is 3-5-2 dictated by the need/desire to accommodate an exciting, creative player who is neither a midfielder nor a winger nor a striker? How do you fit Mayor into a 4-4-2? He's not a classic central midfielder and he's wasted on the wing. Lowe likes two up top and our strikers so far don't look like they can play the lone striker role effectively so that rules out 4-4-1-1 or a variation of that. 4-3-3/4-3-1-2 makes us play narrow when almost all our joy last season came from moving the ball out wide. There'll either need to be a total revamp of playing style and approach (not impossible with 10 new players having to come in) or it'll be 3-5-2 again.

(Assuming Mayor signs again, of course.)

Why do we need two forwards? Why not have Mayor and G Cooper in CAM roles playing further up the pitch and giving us the width we need.

You have to be flexible with your tactics in accordance to the players you have.

You could play 4-4-2 with Mayor left, G Cooper right midfield and Camara and Edwards as the engine room in midfield.

There are options.

 

[PL2 3DQ]

Don't shoot the messenger. He's still under contract at Gillingham but available for transfer.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

Don't shoot the messenger. He's still under contract at Gillingham but available for transfer.

I liked him when saw him play against us for Barnet.

Powerful and strong.

We need something different up front this season in that dynamic.

 

[Paranoid Android]

I liked the 4-2-2-2 he tried. We were solid at the back and more dynamic going forward.

We could also go 4-2-3-1 as suggested. With mayor and Cooper behind the striker. The FBs wouldn’t need to be great wing backs, just get the ball to midfield for mayor and Cooper to take it outside or inside.

Three class CBS playing around the press and distributing to the midfield or wing backs, at this level is pie in the sky in my opinion. He tried it last season and the result speaks for itself. His 4-2-2-2 still played progressive attacking football but with more certainty from the back.

That’s how I see it.

 

[davegreenarmy]

James Wilson released by Salford. Felt he always looked dangerous against us - could he step (back) up to league one?

 

[davie nine]

I think there is some exaggeration on here of what is required of a ball playing centre back. We don't need a Koeman, Van Dijk, David Luiz... Yes they can all spray a 70 yard pass to the forward, which is great, but that's not the level we are demanding.

We need centre backs who can play quick passes vertically into the midfield or into the forwards feet if they come short, or are at the very least comfortable on the ball when pressed. There are plenty of these available in the lower leagues. The only other requirement is that when they do go long into the channel, the ball stays on the pitch.

Kell Watts was good enough on the ball, he was very comfortable bringing it out of Defence and did it to great effect earlier in the season. He's no superstar is he? Unfortunately he was also fairly bad at the basic aspects of defending, which means he's not the answer.

A good example is Sheffield United's central defenders. They used the overlapping centre backs to great effect up until this season. All comfortable passers and all decent on the ball. Some of them had come all the way up to the PL from League One. Basham, Egan and O'Connell... hardly big names are they?

I agree with most of your requirements, Nobby but, for me, the big essential is that they need to be strong and dominating in the air at both ends of the pitch. Like, most recently, Sonny Bradley.

At League 1 level, strong and dominant in the air is way more important than being "comfortable on the ball". Lowe's supposed ball-playing defenders conceded 80 goals, about three-quarters of which were pretty poor defensively more so than they were good offensively.

The ideal pairing would be Coughlan as a right-footer and Bradley as a left-footer. I'd have 50p with anyone that with those 2, we wouldn't concede 80 goals and Mike Cooper would look even better behind them as well.

However, as good as they are/were as defenders who could also pass the ball to a green shirt, they would never be described as ball-players.

On further reflection, Dave; a Bradley type with Coughlan as our defensive coach would be a good shout.

Davie, you are one of a number of fans who have suggested that we need a defensive Coach.

I don't think Lowe would ever want one, especially if he wants to play with 3 at the back bringing the ball out from our own box.

Because of the way they have to join in the play with the rest of the team, I'm not sure you could Coach the Back 3 separately in the way that you could with a flat Back 4, where the requirements are more straightforward and based mainly on defending as a unit.

My main concern was that, at the recent fans’ forum, Dewsnip was asked this question and he implied that we have a defensive coach but, strangely, he would not say who it is.
Also, I consider that, this season, our organisation at set pieces often looked poor, partly because we did not have a big, commanding central defender (or defenders) who could win a decent proportion of aerial challenges.
This was also a weakness when we had attacking set pieces when the big units come forward to help the attackers but rarely won anything.

 

[Quintrell Green]

The weakness that always bugs me with Argyle is that we very seldom make anything out the corner kicks we are awarded.

 

[Joe Totale]

James Wilson released by Salford. Felt he always looked dangerous against us - could he step (back) up to league one?

He was getting crazy wages for League 2, I recall some places guessing around 5-6k a week, perhaps Salford released him as he was a significant drain on the wage budget?

We shouldn't be looking at forwards right now, especially ones who would demand high wages and have never consistently scored at any level. There's much higher priority positions to fill.

 

[PL2 3DQ]

How about - Leeds midfielder Alfie McCalmont. He was on loan at Oldham this/last season scoring 10 goals and had 4 assists. He can play as a defensive or box to box midfielder and Leeds want him to go out on loan to a League One club next season with Cheltenham supposedly in the running.