England v Germany

[Cobi Budge]

From roughly about 7 years of going to England away games, I can honestly say that the only away game where God save the Queen didn't get booed was in Prishtina in Kosovo anyone English was treated like demi gods.

Didn't hear any criticism on these boards of the Scotish fans booing our anthem last week? When we played at Hampden Park a few years ago it was deafening. Booing is not right at all but our own anthem is booed more often and loudly than the other way around.

I always remember Brian Moore the rugby union player who said something along the lines of... you never realise how much the English are hated until you travel the world and play in international games.

Anyway last night was absolutely wonderful at the end and that was the best atmosphere at the new Wembley. Quite enjoying the restricted capacity crowds, less queues and least it's the hard core fans, not the tourists who dilute the atmosphere and don't have much passion or interest in England.

Didn't enjoy the game at all, was way too nervous... felt the same in Moscow during the Colombia game at the World Cup. Roll on Saturday!
Great to see Argyle in the main BBC news as well! Green Army!

Well said, it simply isn’t true to suggest that we’re the only fanbase who boo the oppositions national anthem, it doesn’t make it right, but it isn’t an England only problem. Wembley looked incredible from the videos and pictures I’ve seen, very jealous. Home Park was also great and as close as you can be to being there without actually being there.

 

[Cobi Budge]

I guess thats the question Cobi, i didn't feel any drama or nerves, in fact it left me numb.

The Miracle at Medinah, still makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, as does watching the Ben Stokes innings at Headingly. I love the drama of sport, in almost all of its forms, but for whatever reason the national football team has somehow dampened the fire in me and i dont know why.

Seeing your post and MGM's i can almost read the passion, me and my best mate dont watch England games together anymore, because like yesterday he called me at Half Time buzzing with tension, i nearly nodded off, it was dreadful, no obvious plan (other than not to concede), no entertainment, do desire to play proper football, i even googled when the back pass law was changed (1992 as it happens) - as we passed the ball back to Pickford 25-30 times, the law was supposed to make football more exciting, all its done is make goalkeepers better footballers (but thats not the point). His ridiculous positivity drives me up the wall and my negativity does that him. Yet i'm the one who'd think nothing of driving 500 miles in a day to watch my team, he rarely travels the 3 miles to Sixfields to watch his Northampton side. So of the two of us, i'm the one you'd class as a proper fan, but i just cant spark the fire and i dont know why.

Yeah I’m not criticising you at all, I know lots of people who feel exactly the same way. For me personally though, I’m loving every second of this tournament.

 

[David Friio's mate]

Didn't hear any criticism on these boards of the Scotish fans booing our anthem last week? When we played at Hampden Park a few years ago it was deafening. Booing is not right at all but our own anthem is booed more often and loudly than the other way around.

The argument of "other people act like complete hammocks so why can't I" is about as lame as "you're a hypocrite for thinking this is bad when you didn't equally comment on something I've decided is the same". Neither really washes with me, I'm afraid.

I may live in Scotland, but I'm not Scottish. I'm English, and I'm passing comment on other English fans as they are the people nominally representing me in the stands. It's the same at Argyle - I get more annoyed at Argyle fans acting terribly than I ever do at opposition fans, as it's like I'm being personally embarrassed.

I think the English anthem is dreadful, but that's merely about the tune and sentiment - I think booing any anthem is moronic. It's disrespectful, and plain thick as all it does is motivate the other team.

Civility, respect, moral fibre, honesty and Corinthian spirit. These are things that are rapidly deteriorating in the UK - and I certainly don't want to get political as I'll get "all sides" thrown at me but it's been markedly worse since 2016 and a certain landmark vote.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

I guess thats the question Cobi, i didn't feel any drama or nerves, in fact it left me numb.

The Miracle at Medinah, still makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, as does watching the Ben Stokes innings at Headingly. I love the drama of sport, in almost all of its forms, but for whatever reason the national football team has somehow dampened the fire in me and i dont know why.

Seeing your post and MGM's i can almost read the passion, me and my best mate dont watch England games together anymore, because like yesterday he called me at Half Time buzzing with tension, i nearly nodded off, it was dreadful, no obvious plan (other than not to concede), no entertainment, do desire to play proper football, i even googled when the back pass law was changed (1992 as it happens) - as we passed the ball back to Pickford 25-30 times, the law was supposed to make football more exciting, all its done is make goalkeepers better footballers (but thats not the point). His ridiculous positivity drives me up the wall and my negativity does that him. Yet i'm the one who'd think nothing of driving 500 miles in a day to watch my team, he rarely travels the 3 miles to Sixfields to watch his Northampton side. So of the two of us, i'm the one you'd class as a proper fan, but i just cant spark the fire and i dont know why.

Sport does werid things to our psyche. We go from the emotion of europhia to the depths of depression.

The result yesterday meant everything. However, you are right to highlight the performance. It’s amazing how we overlooked just how average we played yesterday because we won against the Germans. I have no doubt Southgate tactics will come back to bite us firmly in the backside. He is cautious and pragmatic.

For me, you have to be brave. We don’t play that way. The team that normally, not all the time, wins a sporting event are the ones who consistently perform. That’s why when l watch Argyle l think people misunderstand my criticism when we are winning. Last season we won games of football but we weren’t performing well. Eventually, that comes back to bite you as you get punished. You can not perform well on the pitch and still produce consistently good results. One off games are fine. As we seen we many cup games and knock out football.

However, over the course of a competition eventually the consistently good performers will be standing at the end.

I feel a tidal wave of criticism will come crashing back towards this England team in the coming games. The same as it did when we drew against the Scots. Unfortunately, in sport it’s all or nothing. However, it’s good to have days like yesterday because it lifts the mood of a nation and it makes for a pretty good feeling for a few days.

Football Fans don’t do realistic. They do emotional dreaming without taking into account with what they are witnessing. It’s a great ride, until the ride ends unfortunately and results come to a disastrous halt.

I wouldn’t change it though. It’s what makes us human. It’s what makes life worth living. Living for the hope and maybe one day fulfilling those expectations.

 

[Argylegames]

Living for the hope and maybe one day fulfilling those expectations.

"It's not the despair: I can stand the despair. It's the HOPE - that's what's killing me​."

In this case the hope that England will play the flair players and actually GO for a big win, not play to keep a clean sheet.

 

[davie nine]

Why is there so much pessimism about England’s excellent result yesterday?
There almost seems to be disappointment that we have reached the quarter finals using the tactics that we have.
I was pessimistic at the start and was convinced that our defence would crumble against teams like Germany, in particular. Pickford has been excellent, Mings came in and surprised most of us but it allowed Maguire to have more time to prove his fitness, Stones and Walker have been excellent. We have now had 4 clean sheets and we have so much talent on the bench. Sterling, who not many wanted in the starting lineup, has been our match winner in 3 of our 4 games.
Grealish was given his chance yesterday and he proved his value. This is a competition of up to 7 games and, if Southgate’s strategy works he still has Foden, Mount, Sancho, Bellingham, Chilwell, James and Rashford fresh enough to prove their value when required.
Phillips and Saka have ‘come to the fore’ but I suspect there will be more changes for Ukraine.
There could also be suspensions for Foden, Maguire, Rice or Phillips for 2 yellow cards or even a red card but there is good cover on the bench.
It just seems strange that this thread seems to be so negative.

 

[cheshiregreen]

The yellow card jeopardy expires after weekend.

Article 52.05
Single cautions from matches in the final tournament expire on completion of the quarter-finals. They are not carried forward to the semi-finals.

 

[davie nine]

Thanks, cheshiregreen; didn’t know that.

 

[Ponty]

I guess thats the question Cobi, i didn't feel any drama or nerves, in fact it left me numb.

The Miracle at Medinah, still makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, as does watching the Ben Stokes innings at Headingly. I love the drama of sport, in almost all of its forms, but for whatever reason the national football team has somehow dampened the fire in me and i dont know why.

Seeing your post and MGM's i can almost read the passion, me and my best mate dont watch England games together anymore, because like yesterday he called me at Half Time buzzing with tension, i nearly nodded off, it was dreadful, no obvious plan (other than not to concede), no entertainment, do desire to play proper football, i even googled when the back pass law was changed (1992 as it happens) - as we passed the ball back to Pickford 25-30 times, the law was supposed to make football more exciting, all its done is make goalkeepers better footballers (but thats not the point). His ridiculous positivity drives me up the wall and my negativity does that him. Yet i'm the one who'd think nothing of driving 500 miles in a day to watch my team, he rarely travels the 3 miles to Sixfields to watch his Northampton side. So of the two of us, i'm the one you'd class as a proper fan, but i just cant spark the fire and i dont know why.

Yeah I’m not criticising you at all, I know lots of people who feel exactly the same way. For me personally though, I’m loving every second of this tournament.

I didn't sleep a wink the night before the game and as for just beating " a bang average German side" didn't they beat Portugal 4-2?? C'mon England :thumbup:

 

[Voice of Reason]

Ponty, its also the same German side who lost in the Qualifiers to North Macedonia, scraped (and i mean scraped) a draw against Hungary, were totally outclassed by France (in 2nd gear) and conceded 6 versus Spain.
Any win against Germany is to be cherished, but lets be clear, its the worst German side in my lifetime by an absolute distance, (if you disagree with that, please tell me when they were worse) probably in my 98yo Grandfathers lifetime in truth, so whilst we must rightly enjoy it, lets not kid ourselves we had to be anything more than functional - which in tournament football is the most important thing.

 

[Cobi Budge]

Ponty, its also the same German side who lost in the Qualifiers to North Macedonia, scraped (and i mean scraped) a draw against Hungary, were totally outclassed by France (in 2nd gear) and conceded 6 versus Spain.
Any win against Germany is to be cherished, but lets be clear, its the worst German side in my lifetime by an absolute distance, (if you disagree with that, please tell me when they were worse) probably in my 98yo Grandfathers lifetime in truth, so whilst we must rightly enjoy it, lets not kid ourselves we had to be anything more than functional - which in tournament football is the most important thing.

They’re still a significant better team than any England have managed to beat at a tournament in some time though.

 

[Clarke B]

The German side from Euro 2000 were much worse, we beat them 5-1 a year later in Munich as well. Anyone remember Carsten Jancker?!

This current German side is littered with played who have won Bundesliga titles, Champions League winners and 4 of the players have won a World Cup let's not forget. As Cobi said they battered the current European Champions earlier in this tournament. Results in qualifying are irrelevant as far as I am concerned otherwise Turkey would still be in the competition and not back in Istanbul after 10 days!

 

[greenpig27]

Why is there so much pessimism about England’s excellent result yesterday?
There almost seems to be disappointment that we have reached the quarter finals using the tactics that we have.
I was pessimistic at the start and was convinced that our defence would crumble against teams like Germany, in particular. Pickford has been excellent, Mings came in and surprised most of us but it allowed Maguire to have more time to prove his fitness, Stones and Walker have been excellent. We have now had 4 clean sheets and we have so much talent on the bench. Sterling, who not many wanted in the starting lineup, has been our match winner in 3 of our 4 games.
Grealish was given his chance yesterday and he proved his value. This is a competition of up to 7 games and, if Southgate’s strategy works he still has Foden, Mount, Sancho, Bellingham, Chilwell, James and Rashford fresh enough to prove their value when required.
Phillips and Saka have ‘come to the fore’ but I suspect there will be more changes for Ukraine.
There could also be suspensions for Foden, Maguire, Rice or Phillips for 2 yellow cards or even a red card but there is good cover on the bench.
It just seems strange that this thread seems to be so negative.

Well said davie !! :clap:

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

Why is there so much pessimism about England’s excellent result yesterday?
There almost seems to be disappointment that we have reached the quarter finals using the tactics that we have.
I was pessimistic at the start and was convinced that our defence would crumble against teams like Germany, in particular. Pickford has been excellent, Mings came in and surprised most of us but it allowed Maguire to have more time to prove his fitness, Stones and Walker have been excellent. We have now had 4 clean sheets and we have so much talent on the bench. Sterling, who not many wanted in the starting lineup, has been our match winner in 3 of our 4 games.
Grealish was given his chance yesterday and he proved his value. This is a competition of up to 7 games and, if Southgate’s strategy works he still has Foden, Mount, Sancho, Bellingham, Chilwell, James and Rashford fresh enough to prove their value when required.
Phillips and Saka have ‘come to the fore’ but I suspect there will be more changes for Ukraine.
There could also be suspensions for Foden, Maguire, Rice or Phillips for 2 yellow cards or even a red card but there is good cover on the bench.
It just seems strange that this thread seems to be so negative.

I was watching Andy Murray last night. It reminded me of the Andy Murray pre-2012 Olympic win. I know he has had a serious injury so he isn’t going to be near the levels of years before.

However, you can see similarities in the way he played. This was the Andy Murray that placed the ball in the tennis court. The Andy Murray that drop shot from ridiculous positions. He is now slice returning on his forehand ground strokes, at times, and allowing the opponent to be the one dictating the play. There is the Ivan Lendl coached Andy Murray who forced the game to his opponent. Was brave with his shot selection. The difference before Ivan Lendl coached him was that he was reactive instead proactive.

No doubt Southgate is a nice guy. He is surrounded by some great coaches. So far England haven’t conceded or fallen behind. Yet there’s going to be a situation when he needs to be pro-active. He needs to be brave. He had that moment in the second half of 2018 of the Croatia game when England lost the momentum and Croatia equalised. It needed changing. This will be his defining moment as a manager.

England aren’t a brave football team. They don’t look after the ball. I’ve watched them and still can’t figure out a style or pattern of play. If people are honest the question you need to ask yourselves is did you think England were playing well before Sterling scored? Were you frustrated and disappointed with the performance up until we scored. If you were happy with what you saw then fair enough. I thought we lack creativity and ideas. I heard many people say the same thing but it’s amazing how the result masks over the attitude of the performance.

This is my issue and always has been. The result is greater than the performance in many people’s eyes. However, it’s the consistency of playing well that actually is the factor that eventually leads to better results. People often say lm unrealistic regarding Argyle. You can’t play well all the time. That is certainly true. However, it doesn’t mean you don’t have a formula and a team DNA in place so that come the next game you are ready to put the last game to bed and impose your style on the next opponent. England never imposed themselves on Germany. They reacted to their tactics. More nervous about their wing back system. England play with two holding midfielders not because it helps our attacking style of play but because we fear the opposition hurting us defensively. Even against Scotland Southgate refused to change how that game was going. The game was crying out for England to lose a holding midfielder and put on a more attack minded player.

If we win a European Championship this way then fair enough. Maybe pragmatic, defensive football wins. Greece did it. Yet when l think of other past European and World Cup winners like France, Portugal, Spain they had a style of play that allowed them to be on the front foot when needed.

With all this said, l will be cheering them on in the game(s) because l want them to win the Euros. I just can’t unfortunately not be honest about how l feel we are playing. If England win the Euros this way then l guess it will show me how my ideas about this beautiful game are way off the mark. I would take that, for seeing England win a knockout tournament.

 

[MickyD]

Just to add my two penn'orth on this whole negativity debate...

I don't give a toss about the national anthem and all the "patriotism" that goes with it - in fact I find both more and more offensive and anachronistic as the years go by - but for me it genuinely is 55 years of hurt because I turned 11 during the 1966 World Cup. (Could it be that it was all so simple then, or has time rewritten every line?) Personally, I don't really care if England win this tournament, or any other, by playing "negatively", and I don't really believe that anyone else does either. The great Dutch team, successive World Cup Final losers in 1974 and 1978, come to mind. Coulda woulda shoulda - but their name isn't on the trophy.

Like other posters, I never watch friendlies or anything other than the most crucial qualifying games any more (I think the last one was the magical Beckham free kick against Greece). TV news-friendly shows of "nationalistic fervour" at Wembley notwithstanding, though, I still live every kick of an England tournament game as if I were 11 years old again. When England go out, I immediately turn the telly off or leave the room (or pub) because I have zero interest in being told exactly how and why they blew it again this particular time.

I feel the same way about the endless re-runs of Italia 90 and Euro 96, too: everyone wallowing in nationalistic nostalgia for something that always, but always (bar '66) ends in failure and heartbreak - which we already know in advance of the montage!

I just do my own thing: I have two large England flags up in my living room at the moment, and they'll stay there until England go out. If they win, the flags will stay there permanently! Well, maybe until next year, at least. Or maybe my family will have something to say on the matter...