THE oldest photograph of Argyle / Club Colours | Page 2 | PASOTI
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THE oldest photograph of Argyle / Club Colours

dunlop

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Nov 17, 2009
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I see at last the Pasoti banner is now proper Argyle green, not Hibs green not Celtic green but Argyle green. :scarf: :scarf: :scarf:
 
Jul 29, 2010
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IJN":1d5nos8g said:
No X'y it's not.

Simply trying to deduct what fits where.

Photos can fade - agreed, Ogdens swatch can fade - agreed. But putting what we have together this seems more likely, that's all.

I realise you're a flat earther, but I like to keep my mind open a tad.
Right back atcha, had I produced something and claimed it was darker you'd do exactly the same.

It's a bit like brexit v remain, you and I know precisely where we sit on shade preference and thus neither of our 'take' on things is objective. Also like the referendum debate, 'facts' are thin on the ground, all we have are interpretations.
 

IJN

Site Owner
Nov 29, 2012
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Waffle as much as you want Smiffy, it's obvious even to someone as biased as you that the contrast between the black and green is far too great for it to be a dark green.

I have Steve GoS on my team and if the holder of the Argyle oracle agrees that's good enough for me.

Joking apart, you and your dark sort have won the day with the Post 2000 era but please don't tarnish the history of our fine football club with this dark green nonsense!!
 
Jul 29, 2010
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dunlop":thk70njz said:
I see at last the Pasoti banner is now proper Argyle green, not Hibs green not Celtic green but Argyle green. :scarf: :scarf: :scarf:
Really? The banner green looks, and there's no other word to can think to better describe it, but cheap. If it was the idea behind the change, it's not the same green as the photo has been 'interpreted' either.

The photo looks very weak and faded, mint aero green to me, the banner looks nothing like it, it's lurid, more like the sort of green you'd see on plastic ball in a ball pit.

And that's not me trying to promote darker green, I grew up with the vivid Tommy Tynan Sunday Independent shirts. Neither the photoshop job or the banner look like that.

Like I say, cheap, classless if you will.
 

IJN

Site Owner
Nov 29, 2012
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Yeah not quite happy with the green on the top of the site yet, some people have been complimentary but it is a tad garish on certain cheap laptops (no offence X'y).

Joking apart, the green on the old photo as I have said is taken directly from the Ogdens swatch, so that's why it's that colour.

As I say, seeing the original, you can see there is no way is it dark green.
 

IJN

Site Owner
Nov 29, 2012
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Here it is.

zUNDDrs.png
 
Jul 29, 2010
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...because, as you've confirmed already, photos and card can fade over more than a century, it's not surprising it's lighter...but we've done that.

Glad you're not wedded to the banner, it doesn't look nice. I'm on a rather expensive mobile phone as it happens but i'm not expecting my eyes to see anything more classy when I fire up the PC IDC.

Irrespective of personal preferences, the official club green is what it is, I would have thought the most used fans website would respect that. If that changes in due course so be it, but right now the PASOTI banner is more in keeping with the cheap tat sold by the Southend spivs on their rip off stalls...ie unofficial and cheap.
 

IJN

Site Owner
Nov 29, 2012
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Yeah but one half fading and not the other???

As I say, the picture leaves no one in any really doubt the 1898 photo is of a lighter green (compared to the black) than some people had thought.

As for the site, no X'y it won't go back to the dark green, that was created for 'marketing' reasons, I would hope this site reflects our history and not some PR branding initiative back in the year 2000.

That aside, my next post is quite outstanding from an historical point of view (not related to colour).

Truly amazing knowledge.
 
Jul 29, 2010
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IJN":3g2evauu said:
Here it is.

zUNDDrs.png
It's a nice photo, no doubt.

But to interpret colour onto it is absolutely not a precise science. For example, we assume the darker half to be black. But when you see the shorts, suits and waistcoats of those in the picture....they are darker. Darker than black?, how so?, black is black isn't it?

Just look at the two guys sat to the bottom right, next to each other so no depth perspective issues with colour, the suit is darker than the 'black' half of the shirt. Not possible, if anything the 'black' half of the shirt could easily be a rich red or a dark blue it's so different.

So if the black isn't black, or is some other shade of black, if there is such a thing, how can the green be given a nailed down definitive shade?

...and that's before we've even considered the fade over a century.

No real doubt?, PLENTY of doubt. Nothing it seems is black and white...let alone green :wink:
 

IJN

Site Owner
Nov 29, 2012
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Roger Walters:-

Always exciting to see a new Argyle F.C. team photograph and this is the oldest of those we have. I recognised some of the players and officials so by a process of elimination I have worked out the two probable matches it was taken at. The players are photographed in their playing positions, just as the one we already have, taken at Marsh Mills on 17th March 1900 for the Devon Senior Cup 2nd Round. This photograph came with all the names so I know the match is correct.

Unfortunately the photograph attached has no list of names but there are enough clues to work out the detail. This one is photographed in the same spot at Marsh Mills; though from a slightly different angle, in both this and the 1900 picture you can see the same fence behind, in front of the bushes/trees. From the players I recognised, this could be taken on Saturday 18th March 1899 and is, again, the Devon Senior Cup 2nd Round versus Tavistock, which Argyle went on to win 3-0. Argyle are in are green and black halve shirts and black shorts.

The line up is as follows with those I recognised in black and those I have never seen in a photograph before in green.

(Standing, Back row, left to right) Francis Crouch (Patron), William Rowse (Hon. Treasurer) this one is a guess, Stanley Vosper (right-back), Percy Buchan (goalkeeper), Archie P. Fisher (left-back), Clarence Newby Spooner (President), Tom Floyd (Hon. Secretary).

(Seated, Middle row) Charles H. Shute (right half), Clifton Pethick (centre-half), Frank Derry (left-half).

(Seated, Front row) Martin R. Tozer (outside right), J. McRennie (inside right), Hugh E. Rose (centre forward), Reg Dann (inside left), Bruce Spooner (outside left).

For some reason Bruce Spooner, the younger brother of Clarence (I think you can see a family resemblance in this photograph) is not in his kit. He did play on the 18th March, according to match reports. It was not unknown for a player to participate dressed in their trousers and white shirt working clothes. Maybe he turned up late? Whilst a pupil at Plymouth College he was known as a "Slacker".

Nearly two weeks later, on the 31st March 1899, he scored a hat-trick for Devon in the 4-2 defeat of well-known amateur side Surrey Wanderers but snapped a ligament near the end of the match. Due to the injury he did not play again for 7 months, and then, after 2 more matches, his footballing days ended.

There is one other match at Marsh Mills it could be with the same line-up, except the injured Bruce Spooner who does look downcast, but could he sit there with a snapped ligament? The other match was with Albert Ledington playing outside left (he is not in the photograph). This was the next round of the Devon Senior Cup (semi-final) on the Royal Artillery ground at Marsh Mills on Saturday 8th April 1899, played versus Plymstock based club, Lifton. Argyle won 1-0 to get to the final.

There you go, it is one of two matches, but which one? Bearing in mind the above circumstances and noting the demeanour of Bruce Spooner in the photograph, I would say it is probably the semi-final versus Lifton on the 8th April 1899, though it is a little unusual that a player with a snapped ligament is photographed in the outside left position and not Albert Ledington who took Spooner's place?
 
Jul 29, 2010
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...i'll go for the later game, after the shirts had been through the washboard and mangle more often...hence much more of the colour had washed out of their shirts.

Come on Ian, you must admit i've got a point there. The suit, the smoking gun is the suit. If it's darker than the black of the 'black' half of the team shirt sitting next to him then those shirts must've faded by the time the photo was taken. Never mind the fade on the photo taken well over a hundred years ago, the shirts had faded already. Colourfast fabric dye hadn't been invented (first use of the word was 1916).

Nice article though.
 
Jul 29, 2010
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As for not changing the banner back to the current club green, I guess it's your ball, so you can play with it how you like.

Mind you, as you say, no (unrigged) poll has ever put lighter green over darker green so it's not a democratic decision.

I just think it's a shame that the self titled 'premier Argyle messageboard' is no longer, colour wise at least, representative of the club it represents :think:
 
Jul 29, 2010
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IJN":1rv96wfh said:
Perhaps the club should represent its history.
Perhaps the club's 'premier messageboard' should represent it's membership's wishes.

Besides, I don't recall Argyle ever turning out in lurid green, or "garish" green (your word for it earlier) anyway.

I'll leave it there, folk can make their own minds up on it. Mine is made :thumbdown: