IJN":2d2fmjla said:
That posts says everything Slim. :clap:
Read what I say and try not to simply write what you seem to want to get off your chest.
I'll repeat a few things though, as that seems to be way on internet forums, that way it must be the truth.
If I lived away from Plymouth I wouldn't have been as dedicated as I have been that's for sure.
I assume 'disposable income' includes spending money on booze, copious amounts of it, ever Friday and Saturday. If it does, then I stand by what I say, without doubt there's still plenty of it about.
'Half decent' was aimed at those people that watch the 'EPL' because compared to them our footballers are only 50% there, but honest players they are, no matter what people hear on the radio or from their 'friends'.
So witter on all you want about the price of eggs, Argyle are playing some nice stuff, they are getting their act together and as I said all the excuse to not attend are put aside when a big game comes up.
So carry on being a working class hero if you want, beat your drum if you want, have a dig about what you hear on the internet if you want. But I recognise it as bollox.
Hope that's clear enough old boy.
I can't quite comprehend why you're accusing me of misunderstanding what you're getting at when, quite clearly, you're doing the same. So, to take the points on this specific post one by one, and allowing that they all dovetail to a large extent:
The 'disposable income' thing:
I don't care how you dress it up, the fact is that the majority of people do only have so much to spend on entertainment and leisure activities. Like it or not, football is more than ever before (and it always has been to an extent) part of the entertainment/leisure industry. A lot of people will choose to use their limited supply of spondoolicks to go out drinking, and many of these will not consider a night's drinking a 'success' unless they get absolutely ratarsed. It's a bit more public now I think due to people drinking outside and the nature of the way people behave, but this has always been a part of life. People like to let off steam at a weekend and drinking heavily and/or going to football have long been two of the more traditional ways of doing it. I believe, based on things you've written on here in the past, that you dont drink, and I know that a lot of your spare time is taken up with Argyle related stuff, be it attending matches or getting involved with fundraising and other admirable activities. Fair play to you for both those things, I wouldn't dream of criticising you for either of them but in return I would expect you to respect my choice of what I do with my spare time and what others do.
Also, there are certain types of drinking establishment that recognised long ago that people have only so much to spend on boozing. Rather than joining the ranks of all these 'traditional' pubs that are reportedly closing down by the score every month they sort of reinvented themselves and put on loads of promotions - two-for-one offers, shots for a quid, that sort of thing. Personally, I would rather stick hot wires in my jap's eye than frequent these places but I have, on occasions such as a mate's stag do or birthday run, been forced into the odd one or two. For me the whole concept is laughable, all shallow, surface sheen and the idea that you're in some sort of 'exclusive' environment - a couple of them had 'VIP Areas' where, for a small fee, you got the 'luxury' of being able to drink
sitting down with service from some skanky, tattooed waitress. Thing is - these places are rammed every Friday and Saturday and often on 'schoolnights' too. What was it the man said? "Nobody ever went went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." Well, I know we're not Americans but we're certainly getting more like them by the day.
It must also be considered that a lot of the people you see out drinking may be matelots, marines or maybe students who aren't locals and who already have their allegiances, or (and they do exist you know) people who just don't like football.
The 'Half Decent' thing
For the long-term Argyle fan the improvement in recent weeks must be hugely enjoyable and it's great to read and hear that the team are playing some good football as well as getting the results. However, it has to be taken into account that a) we are comparing what is on offer now with what most seem to agree has been the worst few seasons of football in Argyle's history and b) that this is a VERY recent development - it was only a few short weeks ago that many were reckoning that although we were grinding out results the performances were unconvincing and awful to watch, and that we were lucky to get away with it. The Cheltenham game seems to be the one that has got everyone excited - for some, only the first half performance. There are some people on PASOTI who seem to have changed their opinions dramatically about the team and the manager based purely on that solitary 3-0 win. I know that part of that is down to excitement, and the thought that we may finally escape this dreadful division, but it is quite a volte-face.
For now we are, by virtue of a shortish run of decent results, in a play-off place in League Two - four points off top spot, two behind the team currently in the final automatic spot and who we play today, but only four ahead of mid table obscurity. Compared with recent seasons this can only be regarded as progress and for the 'faithful' it will seem not only like justification but also perhaps an opportunity to say 'I told you so' to those of us who've wavered. Fair enough, but although I guess it must be difficult for the truly green-blooded, you must try to look at this through the eyes of those who've lapsed in recent years and also those who we are looking at as being the new blood, the next generation of supporters. Being in sixth place in the fourth tier at this stage of the season is, although exciting to you, hardly the sort of thing that is going to get the punters in in their thousands. Maybe, if we continue to get the results and we're in the automatic places come Christmas and New Year the 'buzz' will kick in and crowds will improve. Sorry, but that's the way it is, and you know as well as I do that it's never really been any different at Argyle. Go back to any of our promotion seasons and look at the attendances - actually, I don't think yoou need to as, like me, you're old enough and ugly enough to know it already. Perhaps, also like me, you're bemoaning the fact that Plymouth just isn't a 'football town' in the way some places are, and would like to think that there is hidden somewhere deep in the Janner psyche a want and a need for a successful Argyle, and that Plymouth could become like Newcastle, Liverpool or Leeds - a place where everyone supported the local club(s). Sorry again, it's not likely to happen because the one thing hat all these other places have in common is a history of success (of one sort or another) - maybe not that recent, but something that's always there, that history, and something that the clubs can use as a marketing tool. We don't have that luxury so we have to use something else.
So, how's about: "Come to Argyle - See a team of honest, hard working lads who don't earn shedloads of money like the Premiership players do, but who are trying their hardest to play half-decent football in the fourth division". Yep - that'll get 'em turning up in their droves won't it. Sorry once again, this is in no way meant to downplay the effort the players are putting in, but what we're talking about here is the perception of the general public. They're so used to a constant, reliable diet of Premier Legue, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga football at the press of a button in their own home or in the comfort of their local that I fear it's going to take a bit more than that to entice them, and that applies at just about every club in the two bottom divisions and about half of the championship too.
The 'turning up for the big games' thing:
Yep, of course they will, and they always have as you well know. Again, that's not just an Argyle or Plymouth thing, it'll happen everywhere. I've heard tell that there are people living in places like Southampton, Swansea and Leicester (and in the fairly recent past, Coventry, Norwich etc) who are plastic Mancs or whatever who have bought season tickets for their local club purely so they get to see 'their' team play as it's the only chance they'll get. They'll also go to a few more 'attractive' fixtures but will, for the larger part of the season, not bother, or they may give their season ticket to a local for the more humdrum games. It's income for the club I guess, and there may be the odd one or two who are 'converted', but I think it says a lot about the way people see football these days.
Another point about this that I've made before is that I think the 'glory hunter' thing is slightly exaggerated at Argyle because for years we were rattling around in what was, at the level we were playing at most of the time. a massive ground, so the increase in attendance at, for example, the Santos friendly or the Everton cup-tie in 74/75 was huge. We went from crowds of around 10K to 38K for one match - almost 300% up, whereas a club like, say, Swindon or Gillingham would have, given the same fixture, had an increase of maybe only 100%. Had they had a ground with the capacity of Home Park in those days I'm sure they would have filled it too. So, although there is undoubtedly something about the Janner mentality
that seems to take a bit more overcoming than most, perhaps we're really not that different to most towns or cities with a perennially underachieving football club.
Anyway, apart from anything else if you can, again, put yourself in the position of the non green-blooded for a second and think, well, can you blame them?
The three points taken together all, for me, add up to the same thing when it comes to the context of this thread overall. As I mentioned about the pubs - the breweries and whoever else owns these bars realised that the only way to buck the trend of pubs closing was to change their ways, offer money saving promotions, project some image or other, and never admit (despite the fact that that's exactly what they're doing) that what's on offer is, essentially, rubbish compared with the real top-end of the market. This is what Argyle should be doing - in fact, Argyle are at the advantage of not actually being rubbish, but they have to realise that the competition is way ahead of them at the moment. They're up against the attractions of the aforementioned bars, pubs etc, with the added opposition of TV football, which people are using as a yardstick, thrown in. Part of this, as I've rattled on about for years, is to PLEASE stop projecting an image as little Argyle, permanent ambitionless underdogs, with some sort of a collective inferiority complex. Somebody earlier on this thread mentioned that Argyle's PR department in the seventies was 'cutting edge'. Well, maybe not exactly, but we were the first club to have a lottery, and very successful it was too, the concept was sold to other clubs, and until it was shamefully misused by McCauley it was a great success. Anyway, the club's PR was, basically, the responsibility of one man who was, I'm pretty sure, called Bill Pearce who'd probably never been on a motivational speaking course or anything like it, but who was just, in my opinion, good at his job. One thing he did was to have the motto 'We'll Be The Greatest' printed on the front of the programme (those newspaper jobbies we had for a while in the seventies) - a simple thing that probably wouldn't get past whatever committee is responsible for whatever the current 'mission statement' is (probably includes the word 'passion' somewhere), but one that went against the usual "ever so 'umble" Argyle style. For a while, in the Mariner/Rafferty heyday, there was a genuine feeling that we were going somewhere, and the crowds turned up, but - as always - the club 'bottled it', Rafferty was sold for peanuts and Mariner (inevitably) left not long afterwards, something that should have been delayed, and maybe would have had Rafferty not been sold. Anyway, at least we had the illusion for a brief period, and I think a bit of that attitude wouldn't go amiss now. I'm not saying that we could genuinely say anything that bold again, especially given the way the game itself has changed, but we surely need to start maybe looking at the rest of this division and saying (with the exception of Pompey to be fair) that we really should be, if not lording it over them, approaching the job with a certain level of confidence and even a modicum of arrogance.
Putting all that aside however, the bottom line right now is to get more bums on seats, and the club really does need to be looking at some offers, a bit like the pubs did. The cup match is a good start, but with the current form and league position on our side there can surely be no better time than now to entice the extra fans in with some discounts and a decent marketing campaign.
Finally, in response to the personal comments at the end of your post as much as I have tried not to rise to them I will, rather than resort to name-calling, just ask you to explain just exactly how what I've said equates to me being, or trying to be, some sort of 'working class hero', what you mean about me 'wittering on' or 'beating my drum' about things I've heard or seen on the internet, and how or why reasoned argument (as opposed to name-calling) is 'bollox'. It's my opinion based on being someone who is able to see the argument for going/not going to Argyle from both sides, not just the side of someone who can't understand why people would choose to, or be forced into making a choice based on their finances, do other things with their spare time.
