The Beautiful Game (child abuse scandal)

[Biggs]

Now that there have been high profile cases in the media hopefully this will lead to a culture of openness where football as a whole recognises that this could happen, and has happened, and puts measures in place where abuse can be confidentially reported and dealt with. I fear that Fifa's investigation may lead to few offenders being prosecuted then hailed as a success without changing the culture that allowed these things to happen undiscovered. We don't need a witch hunt, we need players and apprentices to be aware of and able to report abuse without fear of stigma and losing their career.

'We dont need a witch hunt'? So those responsible for committing or allowing such behaviour should be allowed to get away with it?

This attitude is exactly what I was referencing in my post. You don't take a sledgehammer to an incredibly complex problem, and by the way... being in a witch hunt is always an ugly place to be.

This is a bit like just saying 'bomb the sh*t out of the Middle East'. That's the easy and populist thing to say, but also the least effective and most harmful. Much like the witch hunt you are fond of.

 

[Balham Green]

Now that there have been high profile cases in the media hopefully this will lead to a culture of openness where football as a whole recognises that this could happen, and has happened, and puts measures in place where abuse can be confidentially reported and dealt with. I fear that Fifa's investigation may lead to few offenders being prosecuted then hailed as a success without changing the culture that allowed these things to happen undiscovered. We don't need a witch hunt, we need players and apprentices to be aware of and able to report abuse without fear of stigma and losing their career.

'We dont need a witch hunt'? So those responsible for committing or allowing such behaviour should be allowed to get away with it?

This attitude is exactly what I was referencing in my post. You don't take a sledgehammer to an incredibly complex problem, and by the way... being in a witch hunt is always an ugly place to be.

This is a bit like just saying 'bomb the sh*t out of the Middle East'. That's the easy and populist thing to say, but also the least effective and most harmful. Much like the witch hunt you are fond of.

I think you'll find that this area is actually already ' an ugly place to be'? I repeat my question should those implicated not pay the price? That doesn't preclude other initiatives does it?!

 

[Biggs]

Your reply to Evilpilgrim's (not sure about that username!) excellent post indicated that you thought a witch hunt WAS necessary. As the statement 'we don't need a witch hunt' was what you objected to.

As you say, there are other initiatives.

 

[Andy S]

Not exactly a comforting thing to say, but this is a society problem and an institutional problem within some (hopefully not many) clubs, rather than a football problem. Where there are men in authority over young people, the grim truth is that this sort of scandal happens. We've seen it in the Church, in orphanages and in the media.

Something has to be done to stop this happening. As well as more reporting and stringent checks, I have my own loony left ideas on this matter, that until we start treating paedophilia as an illness and give people the treatment they require before they offend, it's going to keep happening. But that will never happen because of the rabid public reaction and headlines like 'NHS SPEND YOUR MONEY ON PAEDOS'.

*waits for thread to be moved to Opinions*

Anyway, the beautiful game is... as you mentioned... the joy spent kicking a ball against a wall for hours or the ecstasy when your midfielder scores a 30 yard strike in Carlisle. Nothing will change that.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, how would your "Loony Left" (your words) deal with the following scenario?

You have new neighbours. Married couple, mid 30s, 2 boys aged 10 and 12 and a girl aged 8. They're a nice couple and you and they socialise regularly.

Your son asks if he can come home from school with the neighbours kids. You see no reason why not and allow him to do so. All is well for 3 months when, out of the blue, your 10 year old son tells you that he is being sexually abused by the neighbour.

Exactly how do you a) know, and b) "treat" your next door neighbour?

The answer surely, is that you can't possibly know and what does the treatment consist of?

 

[Evilpilgrim]

Now that there have been high profile cases in the media hopefully this will lead to a culture of openness where football as a whole recognises that this could happen, and has happened, and puts measures in place where abuse can be confidentially reported and dealt with. I fear that Fifa's investigation may lead to few offenders being prosecuted then hailed as a success without changing the culture that allowed these things to happen undiscovered. We don't need a witch hunt, we need players and apprentices to be aware of and able to report abuse without fear of stigma and losing their career.

'We dont need a witch hunt'? So those responsible for committing or allowing such behaviour should be allowed to get away with it?

I was in no way suggesting anyone should be ''allowed to get away with it". But I fear that grubbing out a couple of offenders and declaring the problem solved would suit the football authorities.

 

[Biggs]

Not exactly a comforting thing to say, but this is a society problem and an institutional problem within some (hopefully not many) clubs, rather than a football problem. Where there are men in authority over young people, the grim truth is that this sort of scandal happens. We've seen it in the Church, in orphanages and in the media.

Something has to be done to stop this happening. As well as more reporting and stringent checks, I have my own loony left ideas on this matter, that until we start treating paedophilia as an illness and give people the treatment they require before they offend, it's going to keep happening. But that will never happen because of the rabid public reaction and headlines like 'NHS SPEND YOUR MONEY ON PAEDOS'.

*waits for thread to be moved to Opinions*

Anyway, the beautiful game is... as you mentioned... the joy spent kicking a ball against a wall for hours or the ecstasy when your midfielder scores a 30 yard strike in Carlisle. Nothing will change that.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, how would your "Loony Left" (your words) deal with the following scenario?

You have new neighbours. Married couple, mid 30s, 2 boys aged 10 and 12 and a girl aged 8. They're a nice couple and you and they socialise regularly.

Your son asks if he can come home from school with the neighbours kids. You see no reason why not and allow him to do so. All is well for 3 months when, out of the blue, your 10 year old son tells you that he is being sexually abused by the neighbour.

Exactly how do you a) know, and b) "treat" your next door neighbour?

The answer surely, is that you can't possibly know and what does the treatment consist of?

The point is that you deal with these people's issues before that happens. You have specialist centres around the country at which paedophiles are invited to enrol completely anonymously if they know they may have a problem. This hypothetical neighbour would have ideally enrolled in a scheme, got treatment and been 'cured' or at least helped. Let's face it, I find it hard to believe anyone wants to be a paedophile given the incomparably bad status attached so you would hopefully stop crimes occurring at source.

There was a brilliant Louis Theroux documentary about a centre for convicted paedophiles, but surely it makes sense to get these people before their desires are acted on. Surely that's a far, far better idea than ignoring the problem exists and going on a witch hunt when these horrendous crimes inevitably occur.

At present, it is socially unacceptable to come at it from any other angle than 'paedophiles = evil scum' and that's that. Of course that's true when a crime against a child is committed but I can't help but feel we will look back in years to come and think we were really immature and counter-productive in dealing with this problem.

Tin hat on.

P.S. I never thought I'd be typing a post like this out on Pasoti :shocked:

 

[Keepitgreen]

Not exactly a comforting thing to say, but this is a society problem and an institutional problem within some (hopefully not many) clubs, rather than a football problem. Where there are men in authority over young people, the grim truth is that this sort of scandal happens. We've seen it in the Church, in orphanages and in the media.

Something has to be done to stop this happening. As well as more reporting and stringent checks, I have my own loony left ideas on this matter, that until we start treating paedophilia as an illness and give people the treatment they require before they offend, it's going to keep happening. But that will never happen because of the rabid public reaction and headlines like 'NHS SPEND YOUR MONEY ON PAEDOS'.

*waits for thread to be moved to Opinions*

Anyway, the beautiful game is... as you mentioned... the joy spent kicking a ball against a wall for hours or the ecstasy when your midfielder scores a 30 yard strike in Carlisle. Nothing will change that.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, how would your "Loony Left" (your words) deal with the following scenario?

You have new neighbours. Married couple, mid 30s, 2 boys aged 10 and 12 and a girl aged 8. They're a nice couple and you and they socialise regularly.

Your son asks if he can come home from school with the neighbours kids. You see no reason why not and allow him to do so. All is well for 3 months when, out of the blue, your 10 year old son tells you that he is being sexually abused by the neighbour.

Exactly how do you a) know, and b) "treat" your next door neighbour?

The answer surely, is that you can't possibly know and what does the treatment consist of?

The point is that you deal with these people's issues before that happens. You have specialist centres around the country at which paedophiles are invited to enrol completely anonymously if they know they may have a problem. This hypothetical neighbour would have ideally enrolled in a scheme, got treatment and been 'cured' or at least helped. Let's face it, I find it hard to believe anyone wants to be a paedophile given the incomparably bad status attached so you would hopefully stop crimes occurring at source.

P.S. I never thought I'd be typing a post like this out on Pasoti :shocked:

I can't believe you've typed that post either - but for different reasons.

Do you really believe that paedophiles would willingly turn up at a centre saying "I'm attracted to young boys and girls but I want you to stop me from having my satisfaction with them"? I'm not aware of anyone admitting that they'd approached their GP with this "illness" before being convicted.

I think the term witch hunt should be replaced with "a full investigation" once an allegation is made.

I'm sorry Biggs but I'd happily string up anyone convicted of committing such offences against children.

Barry Bennell, the coach at the centre of the current football investigation has been jailed 3 times for the offence, and no doubt he would have been given treatment and assessed but it didn't work with him.

 

[Knarf Reprah]

Not exactly a comforting thing to say, but this is a society problem and an institutional problem within some (hopefully not many) clubs, rather than a football problem. Where there are men in authority over young people, the grim truth is that this sort of scandal happens. We've seen it in the Church, in orphanages and in the media.

Something has to be done to stop this happening. As well as more reporting and stringent checks, I have my own loony left ideas on this matter, that until we start treating paedophilia as an illness and give people the treatment they require before they offend, it's going to keep happening. But that will never happen because of the rabid public reaction and headlines like 'NHS SPEND YOUR MONEY ON PAEDOS'.

*waits for thread to be moved to Opinions*

Anyway, the beautiful game is... as you mentioned... the joy spent kicking a ball against a wall for hours or the ecstasy when your midfielder scores a 30 yard strike in Carlisle. Nothing will change that.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, how would your "Loony Left" (your words) deal with the following scenario?

You have new neighbours. Married couple, mid 30s, 2 boys aged 10 and 12 and a girl aged 8. They're a nice couple and you and they socialise regularly.

Your son asks if he can come home from school with the neighbours kids. You see no reason why not and allow him to do so. All is well for 3 months when, out of the blue, your 10 year old son tells you that he is being sexually abused by the neighbour.

Exactly how do you a) know, and b) "treat" your next door neighbour?

The answer surely, is that you can't possibly know and what does the treatment consist of?

The point is that you deal with these people's issues before that happens. You have specialist centres around the country at which paedophiles are invited to enrol completely anonymously if they know they may have a problem. This hypothetical neighbour would have ideally enrolled in a scheme, got treatment and been 'cured' or at least helped. Let's face it, I find it hard to believe anyone wants to be a paedophile given the incomparably bad status attached so you would hopefully stop crimes occurring at source.

P.S. I never thought I'd be typing a post like this out on Pasoti :shocked:

I can't believe you've typed that post either - but for different reasons.

Do you really believe that paedophiles would willingly turn up at a centre saying "I'm attracted to young boys and girls but I want you to stop me from having my satisfaction with them"? I'm not aware of anyone admitting that they'd approached their GP with this "illness" before being convicted.

I think the term witch hunt should be replaced with "a full investigation" once an allegation is made.

I'm sorry Biggs but I'd happily string up anyone convicted of committing such offences against children.

Barry Bennell, the coach at the centre of the current football investigation has been jailed 3 times for the offence, and no doubt he would have been given treatment and assessed but it didn't work with him.

exactly .....the %#}{ is in hospital now having been found unconscious......I hope it's nothing trivial.
Biggs........cure them? How!

 

[Biggs]

Do you really believe that paedophiles would willingly turn up at a centre saying "I'm attracted to young boys and girls but I want you to stop me from having my satisfaction with them"? I'm not aware of anyone admitting that they'd approached their GP with this "illness" before being convicted.

I think the term witch hunt should be replaced with "a full investigation" once an allegation is made.

Yes I do, if it was completely anonymous. As for people approaching their GP, my point is that paedophilia isn't socially accepted as an illness that should be treated and to my knowledge there aren't specialists in treating it. So at present, there is no-one to approach. And would the hippocratic oath stop the GP calling the police?

And your second point.... a full investigation is clearly necessary but wouldn't have stopped the crime occurring in the first place, which is surely the most crucial thing. We need to be proactive instead of reactive.

 

[Knarf Reprah]

It's not an illness it's a state of mind surely

 

[Biggs]

Do you think people choose to be paedophiles, Frank?

It's such a difficult subject to talk about, obviously. And that's a pretty much impossible question to answer. But there has to be a better attitude somewhere than witch hunts and 'stringing them up'. Surely?

 

[Andy S]

Do you really believe that paedophiles would willingly turn up at a centre saying "I'm attracted to young boys and girls but I want you to stop me from having my satisfaction with them"? I'm not aware of anyone admitting that they'd approached their GP with this "illness" before being convicted.

I think the term witch hunt should be replaced with "a full investigation" once an allegation is made.

Yes I do, if it was completely anonymous. As for people approaching their GP, my point is that paedophilia isn't socially accepted as an illness that should be treated and to my knowledge there aren't specialists in treating it. So at present, there is no-one to approach. And would the hippocratic oath stop the GP calling the police?

And your second point.... a full investigation is clearly necessary but wouldn't have stopped the crime occurring in the first place, which is surely the most crucial thing. We need to be proactive instead of reactive.

You weren't wrong, in your OP.

That has to be the craziest idea ever!

So a bloke walks into the Doc's, says "I've a penchant for sexually assaulting young children, I've got thousands of pictures of young children being r*ped and I'd like you to keep it a secret between us".

What's the Doc going to do? Prescribe a few pills and tell him to come back in a month...when he's attacked a few more and got some more pictures?

You seem to fall on the side of the offender, as if he is some sort of victim. He isn't.

What about the kids in all this? Don't they count?

The offender? He's a 100% filthy, disgusting pervert who should be locked up with the key thrown away.

 

[justanotherfan]

Agree 100% Bob, and Biggs, stringing them up is a guaranteed "cure". We have a duty of care the weak and vulnerable, children need protecting from the evil monsters who choose to prey on them. All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

 

[Biggs]

You seem to fall on the side of the offender, as if he is some sort of victim. He isn't.

What about the kids in all this? Don't they count?

The offender? He's a 100% filthy, disgusting pervert who should be locked up with the key thrown away.

Last post on this subject because I feel a bit sick and angry at what you've just posted there, but if you think me suggesting ways to prevent child abuse before it happens is me sympathising with child sex offenders and saying the kids don't count.... you're a complete and utter tw*t.

 

[IJN]

Do you think people choose to be paedophiles, Frank?

It's such a difficult subject to talk about, obviously. And that's a pretty much impossible question to answer. But there has to be a better attitude somewhere than witch hunts and 'stringing them up'. Surely?

I think in their case that's fine.

You can't cure them, they exist, so if they are put down there are less of them. Simplistic in the extreme, but the logic is sound.