Home Park Grandstand , Western Gate & HHP appln submitted

[SWTT]

Did 10 million quid for the club depend entirely on a cinema being built? I don't see how all the extras generated that before and yet now James Brent's side tied in side project can't even put chairs in the corner? I don't get it.

 

[Ipplepen green]

The plans look smart, only downside for me is having the players tunnel beside the away supporters.

 

[rsp4]

Just looked at the plans and I was very impressed if all of phase1 can be done with the 5 million.

This is the best we can hope for unless a sugar daddy comes in and It will be good.

The ground size is about right and what ever additional funding comes in after this is finished is better than the funding the ground brings in now.

I think some people live in cloud cuckoo land if they think we can do what Cardiff, Hull , Swansea or Bristol City have done and what we see here is a good compromise.

I would like to see a timeline for the corners to be filled in but I get its down to money.

JB has said many a time build the foundations first good and strong. We are starting to see that now with the training ground upgrades, The stronger playing squad, Money in the bank, year on year improvement as a business and now the grand stand.

Could we have better? I doubt it without a massive mortgage or a sugar daddy. Does this tick a majority of the boxes? Yes probably for now and the foreseeable future.

The Horseshoe was designed to take a second teir if required (imagine as the years roll by that would be harder to implement) so thats an option if the crowds suddenly leapt to a full ground every fortnight and the coffers became wedged.

Im happy with this proposal do well done all. Now down to PCC to sign off against the plans

 

[IJN]

I suspect that we may only be able to rely on unbudgeted income such as transfer and add on windfalls and valuable Cup runs to underwrite the cost of Stage 2 as Ian (IJN) has confirmed in the thread above unless further secured loans are taken out or the shareholders release additional funds through further share issues.

I've 'confirmed' nothing Graham, I merely voiced a hope and an opinion.

 

[jimsing]

We will always be in the position of having to decide what to do with whatever money we generate, do we spend it on the playing staff or do we put it aside for the completion of the ground.

I cannot see us ever being in the position to say, lets not give extra money to the manager because he doesn't need it, lets put it aside towards phase 2.

The manager will always want to improve his squad and the supporters will always want to get as good a squad as possible.

Having said that, there is always a possibility of obtaining sufficient money as a one-off at some future date, but it would be very unusual if it were to occur. An example would be a sponsorship deal with a company (perhaps to name a stand or suchlike), but it would have to be able to cover the whole of the expense of phase 2, or it could be combined with other unbudgeted and unplanned income which happened to come our way at the same time.

Who knows what the future has in store, although, in my opinion it would be rather unlikely to happen, lets not rule it out entirely.

 

[The Grumpy Loyal]

I know exactly how you feel mate.

I think they've admit that there's no time scale or financing plans for Stage 2 though Ian. So it's well and good saying that a few bonuses might pay for it, but there's a bit of confusion as to how much the whole thing would cost as an extra. And that's not being looked into, which is why I say at current there doesn't seem to be a genuine intention to get it built. It's a very very nice idea.

Phase 2 was also detailed to possibly house rail seats/safe standing to increase capacity. There's been a bit of movement on that front lately, with Shrews being granted permission to fit them in their new stand. Has this been looked into.

As said already, I like the plans, but the way they've been revealed and expanded with all these extras chucked in to surrounding sites (and the lack of benefit to PAFC) does leave me a bit puzzled as to why it's been so deceptive. I'm sure there's money being made with the developments and good for the parties involved, but it'd be nice if Argyle was one of those. If Phase 2 could be confirmed to proceed I think you'd satisfy almost every Argyle fan out there.

While Phase 2 remains as a lingering idea it just seems that once again we can't ever get a project done to 100%. 16 years waiting for the original Phase 2 and finally a refurb that seems to have legs ends up leaving the ground at 90% finished. It's just frustrating.

Someone more qualified than me will confirm but I think once a planning application is submitted the development must take place within three years or else a completely new planning application must be submitted.
If true, it means that having submitted plans for Stage 2 it needs to happen within three years, so I suppose that's the time scale for Stage 2.

Once a planning permission has been implemented (commenced) it remains live. So a commencement on Stage 1 will allow Stage 2 to be commenced (in accordance with the approved plans) without the need to seek a further planning permission.

The original Phase 2 could be still be built today (again in accordance with the approved plans back in 2002) without the need to seek further approval.

With regard to Stage 2 I asked James Brent at the recent Fans Forum whether any profits generated by development within HHP would be put towards Stage 2 in accordance with the agreement of March 2012 when the land was purchased by one of James Brent's companies HHP Nominee Ltd. Both he and Simon Hallett declined to confirm that should there be any profits that they would be put towards Stage 2. They said it would depend upon the priorities of the Football Club at the time.

With regard to any future profits from the proposed HHP development it is hard to see what might be generated once the cost of the Ice Rink is taken into financial account, particularly as the more valuable hotel and some other food and drink uses have moved from the HHP site, as originally proposed, to the more favourable, visible and valuable location of the Western Gateway site.

I suspect that we may only be able to rely on unbudgeted income such as transfer and add on windfalls and valuable Cup runs to underwrite the cost of Stage 2 as Ian (IJN) has confirmed in the thread above unless further secured loans are taken out or the shareholders release additional funds through further share issues.

Brent actually confirmed at the Fans Forum that should additional unbudgeted funds ever become available, it would be his personal preference that priority NOT be given to any future Stage 2 finishing of the corners.

It's depressing, but as long as Brent is holding the reins, it'll never happen.

 

[jimsing]

I know exactly how you feel mate.

I think they've admit that there's no time scale or financing plans for Stage 2 though Ian. So it's well and good saying that a few bonuses might pay for it, but there's a bit of confusion as to how much the whole thing would cost as an extra. And that's not being looked into, which is why I say at current there doesn't seem to be a genuine intention to get it built. It's a very very nice idea.

Phase 2 was also detailed to possibly house rail seats/safe standing to increase capacity. There's been a bit of movement on that front lately, with Shrews being granted permission to fit them in their new stand. Has this been looked into.

As said already, I like the plans, but the way they've been revealed and expanded with all these extras chucked in to surrounding sites (and the lack of benefit to PAFC) does leave me a bit puzzled as to why it's been so deceptive. I'm sure there's money being made with the developments and good for the parties involved, but it'd be nice if Argyle was one of those. If Phase 2 could be confirmed to proceed I think you'd satisfy almost every Argyle fan out there.

While Phase 2 remains as a lingering idea it just seems that once again we can't ever get a project done to 100%. 16 years waiting for the original Phase 2 and finally a refurb that seems to have legs ends up leaving the ground at 90% finished. It's just frustrating.

Someone more qualified than me will confirm but I think once a planning application is submitted the development must take place within three years or else a completely new planning application must be submitted.
If true, it means that having submitted plans for Stage 2 it needs to happen within three years, so I suppose that's the time scale for Stage 2.

Once a planning permission has been implemented (commenced) it remains live. So a commencement on Stage 1 will allow Stage 2 to be commenced (in accordance with the approved plans) without the need to seek a further planning permission.

The original Phase 2 could be still be built today (again in accordance with the approved plans back in 2002) without the need to seek further approval.

With regard to Stage 2 I asked James Brent at the recent Fans Forum whether any profits generated by development within HHP would be put towards Stage 2 in accordance with the agreement of March 2012 when the land was purchased by one of James Brent's companies HHP Nominee Ltd. Both he and Simon Hallett declined to confirm that should there be any profits that they would be put towards Stage 2. They said it would depend upon the priorities of the Football Club at the time.

With regard to any future profits from the proposed HHP development it is hard to see what might be generated once the cost of the Ice Rink is taken into financial account, particularly as the more valuable hotel and some other food and drink uses have moved from the HHP site, as originally proposed, to the more favourable, visible and valuable location of the Western Gateway site.

I suspect that we may only be able to rely on unbudgeted income such as transfer and add on windfalls and valuable Cup runs to underwrite the cost of Stage 2 as Ian (IJN) has confirmed in the thread above unless further secured loans are taken out or the shareholders release additional funds through further share issues.

Brent actually confirmed at the Fans Forum that should additional unbudgeted funds ever become available, it would be his personal preference that priority NOT be given to any future Stage 2 finishing of the corners.

It's depressing, but as long as Brent is holding the reins, it'll never happen.

I tend to agree with him. There are far more important and pressing matters. Improved training facilities is one. Compare us to other clubs and we are far, far behind most of our compatriots. There are far greater needs than completing phase 2, which will only show a small improvement in relation to the money that would have to be spent on it.

 

[The Grumpy Loyal]

Training facilities have been improved significantly.

Unless we forever want to limit our potential, then once every odd decade or so, enabling that potential by putting down bricks and mortar needs to be somebody's priority.

Sadly we know it'll never be Brent's.

 

[Biggs]

Training facilities have been improved significantly.

Unless we forever want to limit our potential, then once every odd decade or so, enabling that potential by putting down bricks and mortar needs to be somebody's priority.

Sadly we know it'll never be Brent's.

That makes no sense.

Calling out James Brent for not putting down bricks and mortar seems bizarre, when under his stewardship we've seen the biggest improvement to the training ground in my liftetime, and will see Home Park as a 21st century football stadium for the first time.

His point was not that he doesn't want to see Phase 2 completed, it's that he doesn't want to prioritise Phase 2 while other more fundamental aspects of the clubs infrastructure are lacking. Which is entirely the correct way of thinking for a responsible owner.

 

[pafcdje]

Arguably until we're in the Championship or pushing for it Stage 2 doesn't need to be done .That may of course come in the next couple of years but until we are pushing against the upper levels of Phase 1 capacity on a reasonably regular basis Phase 2 is " nice to have " rather than " need to have" . The conferencing facilities in Phase 1 ,if fully utilised, will allow funds to be invested in the team and other facilities so that in effect Phase 1 funds Phase 2 . That's how the Chiefs have developed their ground which essentially started life as a grandstand with conferencing facilities and temporary stands . Ultimately the success of Phase 1 will depend on whether the Plymouth public and businesses support and use the new facilities in the same way that the Exeter public and businesses have used the Chiefs . As fans we have a role to play in that both in our general/ working lives and on match days so that going to the Brit for a pre/ post match pint becomes a thing of the past.

 

[Penlee]

Excellent points about the parking. In my previous role for an international investment firm we used Sandy Park invariably for conferencing (it is less about local businesses using it than national ones getting their message across to potential customers, and of course the big public sector conferences - Sandy Park was often fully booked on enquiry with NHS meetings).

Sandy Park has often had a big problem with parking however on non match days, having not been there recently i am not sure that has been alleviated.

Home Park needs to attract these type of lucrative arrangements which in Plymouth currently scatter between Boringdon/Future Inn/St Elizabeth's/New Continental/Duke of Cornwall none of which are ideal

 

[Quintrell Green]

I agree with GC's submission that the lack of immediately adjacent parking spaces at HHP would be a negative feature in marketing the benefits of the new planned conferencing facility, especially as compared to the Sandy Park, Exeter set up. Nobody really wants to tramp in rainy conditions from the more distant Park & Ride Car Park especially if ladies are dressed in their best 'frocks'. There is also the feeling that can develop as to why I am being expected to pay car parking fees to a third party to attend a corporate event or dinner.

Here in Newquay we have a roughly similar situation at Fistral Beach Centre, where there is a pay by machine car park immediately adjacent to bars and restaurants. The unwary would think that the car parking comes for free, but not so, as Parking Eye prevails in robust fashion, much to the chagrin of tourists. In the past the leisure businesses have refunded car parking fees to bona fide customers, but this proved cumbersome. The Car Park is now offered for free after 6pm, which is a major improvement. I would hope that PCC can offer similar such free parking during the day as conferencing is an all day operation. This would help, but I feel that currently, logistical gaps exist in making the trading of the conference facilities the roaring success, it could be. I will follow this issue with interest.

 

[pedro91]

Training facilities have been improved significantly.

Unless we forever want to limit our potential, then once every odd decade or so, enabling that potential by putting down bricks and mortar needs to be somebody's priority.

Sadly we know it'll never be Brent's.

In what way have the training facilities improved?

 

[Electronic]

Training facilities have been improved significantly.

Unless we forever want to limit our potential, then once every odd decade or so, enabling that potential by putting down bricks and mortar needs to be somebody's priority.

Sadly we know it'll never be Brent's.

That makes no sense.

Calling out James Brent for not putting down bricks and mortar seems bizarre, when under his stewardship we've seen the biggest improvement to the training ground in my liftetime, and will see Home Park as a 21st century football stadium for the first time.

His point was not that he doesn't want to see Phase 2 completed, it's that he doesn't want to prioritise Phase 2 while other more fundamental aspects of the clubs infrastructure are lacking. Which is entirely the correct way of thinking for a responsible owner.

'Stewardship' and cold hard cash are two different things. Let's not forget that the refurb (it's not new bricks and mortar as such) would not be happening were it not for the Hallett's cash (loan). James Brent has risked relatively very little materially since taking over. Leverage is king.

 

[jimsing]

Training facilities have been improved significantly.

Unless we forever want to limit our potential, then once every odd decade or so, enabling that potential by putting down bricks and mortar needs to be somebody's priority.

Sadly we know it'll never be Brent's.

That makes no sense.

Calling out James Brent for not putting down bricks and mortar seems bizarre, when under his stewardship we've seen the biggest improvement to the training ground in my liftetime, and will see Home Park as a 21st century football stadium for the first time.

His point was not that he doesn't want to see Phase 2 completed, it's that he doesn't want to prioritise Phase 2 while other more fundamental aspects of the clubs infrastructure are lacking. Which is entirely the correct way of thinking for a responsible owner.

'Stewardship' and cold hard cash are two different things. Let's not forget that the refurb (it's not new bricks and mortar as such) would not be happening were it not for the Hallett's cash (loan). James Brent has risked relatively very little materially since taking over. Leverage is king.

James Brent was very clear, when he bought Argyle, that it would have to stand on its own two feet.

Do you have a problem with that, because if he hadn't have stepped in we would have gone to the dogs, right?