Budget v other League 1 teams

[Rob GT4]

So you actually believe that the club has 'set aside' (your words) 1 million pounds from the clubs budget to build a roof on a grandstand that, if it still goes ahead, will be done in say 3 years time?

Sorry, that's just not believable and there has been no evidence from anywhere or anybody to say that's the case either, the 1m will more than likely be financed if and when it comes to it.

Martin Starnes has said that on examination, the grandstand roof needs to be replaced and a sum of about £900,000 has been set aside, on top of the £5m that is being spent on the grandstand refurbishment.

It is Q4 in the Grandstand Q & A - https://www.pafc.co.uk/news/2017/june/grandstand-plans-your-questions-answered/

I think Starnes revealed the sum in a Herald piece. I'll try to find it.

The quote you've referenced states:

Q4: Roof: will the pillars holding the roof up be replaced so as to improve sight lines and what will happen to the floodlights? Will the roof be translucent?

A4: The roof and the Grandstand floodlights need to be replaced (the Board has agreed that this will be funded in addition to the £5m budget) but they will be replaced with a similar structure to that which already exists (the roof will be extended to cover the disabled seating-see below). This is consistent with the ambition of retaining the Archibald Leitch shape and impressively is the most efficient structure the engineers could come up with. The further extension of the roof over the lower terrace (Stage 2) will be made from translucent polycarbonate and will be supported by the two corner structures.



I'm fully aware that the board has agreed to finance a roof extension when/if the grandstand is built in years to come, however saying that we will be doing the roof of a grandstand due to be finished in around 3 years time is very different to saying 'our budget this year is 1 million pounds short because we've already put the money aside'.

I think you may be misunderstanding things. The new roof was going to be part of phase two, but it requires replacing now, when the grandstand is refurbished. I understand that the works will start at the turn of the year, although I do not know at what stage the roof will be replaced.

The Club will put the money aside now, whilst we have it, regardless of when it will be required to be spent, in order to ensure that it is financed, and that it does not impinge on future income.

The extension of the roof was originally planned for phase two, but I do not know whether that will be included in the replacement in phase 1 or not.

Does that not make sense?

Not really no, you've made massive assumptions that it appears you have literally made up.

What you have said is, and I quote:

The Club will put the money aside now, whilst we have it, regardless of when it will be required to be spent, in order to ensure that it is financed, and that it does not impinge on future income.


There is absolutely no evidence anywhere from anyone connected with the club suggesting that 1 million pounds has been siphoned off and set aside from what we are spending right now to prepare for something required years in the future. You have merely assumed that the club have already ringfenced a million pounds from our recent windfalls, which is just extremely unlikely speculative nonsense, if anything I fully expect the roof extension to be financed through borrowing spread across the majority stakeholders if and when it's required, it won't have been tucked away in a box under the bed years in advance.

 

[jimsing]

So you actually believe that the club has 'set aside' (your words) 1 million pounds from the clubs budget to build a roof on a grandstand that, if it still goes ahead, will be done in say 3 years time?

Sorry, that's just not believable and there has been no evidence from anywhere or anybody to say that's the case either, the 1m will more than likely be financed if and when it comes to it.

Martin Starnes has said that on examination, the grandstand roof needs to be replaced and a sum of about £900,000 has been set aside, on top of the £5m that is being spent on the grandstand refurbishment.

It is Q4 in the Grandstand Q & A - https://www.pafc.co.uk/news/2017/june/grandstand-plans-your-questions-answered/

I think Starnes revealed the sum in a Herald piece. I'll try to find it.

The quote you've referenced states:

Q4: Roof: will the pillars holding the roof up be replaced so as to improve sight lines and what will happen to the floodlights? Will the roof be translucent?

A4: The roof and the Grandstand floodlights need to be replaced (the Board has agreed that this will be funded in addition to the £5m budget) but they will be replaced with a similar structure to that which already exists (the roof will be extended to cover the disabled seating-see below). This is consistent with the ambition of retaining the Archibald Leitch shape and impressively is the most efficient structure the engineers could come up with. The further extension of the roof over the lower terrace (Stage 2) will be made from translucent polycarbonate and will be supported by the two corner structures.



I'm fully aware that the board has agreed to finance a roof extension when/if the grandstand is built in years to come, however saying that we will be doing the roof of a grandstand due to be finished in around 3 years time is very different to saying 'our budget this year is 1 million pounds short because we've already put the money aside'.

I think you may be misunderstanding things. The new roof was going to be part of phase two, but it requires replacing now, when the grandstand is refurbished. I understand that the works will start at the turn of the year, although I do not know at what stage the roof will be replaced.

The Club will put the money aside now, whilst we have it, regardless of when it will be required to be spent, in order to ensure that it is financed, and that it does not impinge on future income.

The extension of the roof was originally planned for phase two, but I do not know whether that will be included in the replacement in phase 1 or not.

Does that not make sense?

Not really no, you've made massive assumptions that it appears you have literally made up.

What you have said is, and I quote:

The Club will put the money aside now, whilst we have it, regardless of when it will be required to be spent, in order to ensure that it is financed, and that it does not impinge on future income.


There is absolutely no evidence anywhere from anyone connected with the club suggesting that 1 million pounds has been siphoned off and set aside from what we are spending right now to prepare for something required years in the future. You have merely assumed that the club have already ringfenced a million pounds from our recent windfalls, which is just extremely unlikely speculative nonsense, if anything I fully expect the roof extension to be financed through borrowing spread across the majority stakeholders if and when it's required, it won't have been tucked away in a box under the bed years in advance.

Who's making assumptions? Best of luck if you think that will happen.

 

[Lundan Cabbie]

Argyle's attendance figures may be greater than a lot of L1 clubs but the most important figures are the actual income. I would hazard a guess from just looking around the grandstand on match days that Argyle have a high percentage of concession price supporters. I wonder how Argyle's summer income from season ticket sales compares to other clubs in hard pounds.

 

[PL2 3DQ]

Martyn Starnes mentioned the budget on the club website today, it's been substantially increased with Adams having an influence on setting the budget.

Link

“This season, having got promoted, we increased the budget substantially – it’s a competitive budget for the division. We have a higher budget than a number of clubs in the league, but lower than some others.” 

“Sometimes, that can be very frustrating if you get outbid for a player you really want. 

“We look at the finances. Everyone knows we run this club prudently. We have got ourselves into a strong financial position relative to where we were five or six years ago and we intend to maintain that.

“The manager is very much part of the discussions in terms of what we can pay to players and he very much determines what that structure looks like once we’ve got a global figure in what we can use."

 

[Pilgrim61]

Reliable source - connected with Professional clubs from PL to L1 - told me that our budget is bottom 4 - Oldham, Gillingham, AFCW and PAFC.

 

[Knibbsworth]

The problem is that DA has wasted a budget, which I think is probably bigger than for most Third Division teams. We have far too big a squad (even allowing for the need to replace suspended players), which is bound to lead to discontent amongst those getting hardly any game time. Same last season, when he wasted the fans money on players like Nardiello that he had no intention of playing

I've pointed out on another thread that the great Leeds side of late 60's/early 70's got by on about 15 players, who played week in, and week out, in all competitions - Sprake, Reaney, Cooper, Bremner, Charlton, Hunter, Lorimer, Clarke, Jones, Giles and Gray, with Madeley as a utility player who could play in any position if there was an injury. In contrast, DA has no idea whatsoever as to his first choice team.

I wonder how Don Revie would have got on if his CB pairing and his best player were suspended, and his main CF was out injured along with his goalkeeper and a player of the season contender.

That's Edwards, Bradley, Carey, Taylor, McCormick and Threlkeld all unavailable (most at the same time).

Your recommended reserve bank of 4 players would not have even got us through the first 6 games.

 

[Knibbsworth]

Martyn Starnes mentioned the budget on the club website today, it's been substantially increased with Adams having an influence on setting the budget.

Link

“This season, having got promoted, we increased the budget substantially – it’s a competitive budget for the division. We have a higher budget than a number of clubs in the league, but lower than some others.” 

“Sometimes, that can be very frustrating if you get outbid for a player you really want. 

“We look at the finances. Everyone knows we run this club prudently. We have got ourselves into a strong financial position relative to where we were five or six years ago and we intend to maintain that.

“The manager is very much part of the discussions in terms of what we can pay to players and he very much determines what that structure looks like once we’ve got a global figure in what we can use."

If our budget is higher than two other clubs, then I suppose two is literally 'a number'.

You couldn't impeach Starnes on that vaguest of clarifying statements.

If our budget was anything decent, we wouldn't be reliant on a loan striker, a career non league striker and a teenager to be firing us up the league.

 

[Alan Turing]

If Mr Adams has an influence on setting the budget, maybe he should stop griping about it!

 

[monkeywrench]

Exactly.

 

[gaspargomez]

I've read Martin Stearnes' comments and he chooses his words carefully.

All he is saying is that there are clubs with a lower budget than Argyle. He doesn't say how many- its quite possibly two or three. The the term "competitive budget" means anything you want it mean. A bit like "Brexit means Brexit".

Adams clearly does not set the total budget. He decides how it is spent.

Based the background of the players Argyle signed this summer (generally rejects and League Two squad players) I am far from convinced that the budget is very good for League One. Which is a shame as the club get high attendances and with a bit more excitement on the pitch they would probably get five figure gates every week.

 

[Andy Holland]

Interesting timing of those words from Starnes.

Given the amount of Adams has talked about our restrictive budget, Starnes would have known what he was potentially saying by telling everyone that the budget is "competitive", regardless of how you interpret that word.

 

[David Fisher]

I've read Martin Stearnes' comments and he chooses his words carefully.

All he is saying is that there are clubs with a lower budget than Argyle. He doesn't say how many- its quite possibly two or three. The the term "competitive budget" means anything you want it mean. A bit like "Brexit means Brexit".

Adams clearly does not set the total budget. He decides how it is spent.

Based the background of the players Argyle signed this summer (generally rejects and League Two squad players) I am far from convinced that the budget is very good for League One. Which is a shame as the club get high attendances and with a bit more excitement on the pitch they would probably get five figure gates every week.

The manager on 3rd September:

"I’ve always had to overachieve. I did that in my first season here; I’ve done that in my second season; and I’ll continue to try to do that because we do not have the finances of any other club in this league. "

https://www.pafc.co.uk/news/2017/septem ... y-it-down/

 

[Knibbsworth]

If Mr Adams has an influence on setting the budget, maybe he should stop griping about it!

Oh! So Mr Adams chooses to have one of the lowest budgets in the division? Whereas most managers bang on the chairman's door for extra funding for a new addition, Adams bangs on the door to make doubly sure JB keeps those restrictions on his playing budget in place? That's completely laughable.

There's not a manager going who would turn down the funding that their rivals are spending - in Derek Adams's case it seems like almost every manager in the division has more to spend on staying up than him.

When Argyle have the fifth largest attendances in the division questions need to be asked. Where is the money going as we're relying on average strikers from non league to fire us up the table, while the likes of Paddy Madden are scoring for the opposition on gates less than ours?

 

[PL2 3DQ]

Martyn Starnes mentioned the budget on the club website today, it's been substantially increased with Adams having an influence on setting the budget.

Link

“This season, having got promoted, we increased the budget substantially – it’s a competitive budget for the division. We have a higher budget than a number of clubs in the league, but lower than some others.” 

“Sometimes, that can be very frustrating if you get outbid for a player you really want. 

“We look at the finances. Everyone knows we run this club prudently. We have got ourselves into a strong financial position relative to where we were five or six years ago and we intend to maintain that.

“The manager is very much part of the discussions in terms of what we can pay to players and he very much determines what that structure looks like once we’ve got a global figure in what we can use."

If our budget is higher than two other clubs, then I suppose two is literally 'a number'.

You couldn't impeach Starnes on that vaguest of clarifying statements.

If our budget was anything decent, we wouldn't be reliant on a loan striker, a career non league striker and a teenager to be firing us up the league.

The budget also covered contract extensions for Bradley (in L2 Team of the Year), Threlkeld, Fox, Songo'o and Miller and new contracts for Sawyer and Carey (in L2 Team of the Year) who was supposedly attracting interest from Championship clubs and is now probably our highest paid player since the last time we were in L1.
The budget also covered the signing of two extra first team keepers, which as it turns out was needed this week.

 

[Andy Holland]

If Mr Adams has an influence on setting the budget, maybe he should stop griping about it!

There's not a manager going who would turn down the funding that their rivals are spending - in Derek Adams's case it seems like almost every manager in the division has more to spend on staying up than him.

It seems like that because Adams keeps saying it, whereas the only thing the CEO has said on the matter is that we have a competitive budget - we can speculate but the truth is that none of us really know anything about the finances at the club outside of what the club have wanted to release.

Adams has a vested interest in people thinking he's overachieving, probably why he points it out at every opportunity.