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THE Home Park planning hearing thread + subsequent chat.

Biggs

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GreenSam":3i80wei3 said:
Biggs":3i80wei3 said:
I still think those against the development in its current form (as I was) are still thinking of this stupidly released first image. I know I couldn't believe my eyes:

images


If this had been the first image released, I don't think we'd have half the disappointment amongst the fanbase. I'm certainly right behind it now, capacity aside. Forget figures and architects impressions, just imagine how good this will look compared to the Mayflower when it's actually there. And with the bigger roof and supporting truss, it's actually a bigger structure:

images
To be fair though, you say 'capacity aside' like it's a minor issue.

I'm broadly in favour of it 'capacity aside' and as you say it looks great. But being in favour of it capacity aside is kind of like being pro the previous Labour government 'the Iraq War aside'. Or like being happy with the Blackman signing 'attitude aside'. It may just be one thing but it's a pretty vital one and not easy to put aside.

Absolutely, and for what it's worth I've agreed with most of your points regarding the development. I should really have added the caveat 'assuming the expansion really is viable'. If all goes absolutely to plan, we'll have more than enough capacity for L2 and L1, we'll have the 20,500 expansion at some point in the Championship, then (presumably, this part seems a bit vague) we'll add another tier on to the horseshoe for c30k if we ever get to the Premier League. It's a big IF though...

Anyway, I was mainly pointing out the PR own goal by the club, and 'trying' to look at the positives, which we have to do as the rebuild really does need to happen.
 
P

pilgrimgreen

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It's clear sensible fans want the grandstand built ASAP and realise the income generated will stand us in good stead for years to come. Let's get it done.
 

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Biggs":2l0jz38u said:
I still think those against the development in its current form (as I was) are still thinking of this stupidly released first image. I know I couldn't believe my eyes:

images


If this had been the first image released, I don't think we'd have half the disappointment amongst the fanbase. I'm certainly right behind it now, capacity aside. Forget figures and architects impressions, just imagine how good this will look compared to the Mayflower when it's actually there. And with the bigger roof and supporting truss, it's actually a bigger structure:

images

Totally agree with that, it was a silly PR mistake.

That scribble going into the Herald was a major mistake at the time.
 

Mike Greening

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We need to fill the public gallery. :scarf: :scarf: :scarf: :scarf:
 
pilgrimgreen":1pr9hl3y said:
It's clear sensible fans want the grandstand built ASAP and realise the income generated will stand us in good stead for years to come. Let's get it done.

I'm still not clear what additional income will be generated over and above what we already have. I thought everything within the footprint was to go to the football club, but that evidently isn't the case.

Look's nice, but that's about as far as it goes for me.
 

ejh

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Biggs":1nid92xk said:
I still think those against the development in its current form (as I was) are still thinking of this stupidly released first image. I know I couldn't believe my eyes:

images


If this had been the first image released, I don't think we'd have half the disappointment amongst the fanbase. I'm certainly right behind it now, capacity aside. Forget figures and architects impressions, just imagine how good this will look compared to the Mayflower when it's actually there. And with the bigger roof and supporting truss, it's actually a bigger structure:

images


The numbers released on the seating suggests that the Mayflower will not be much higher than the top of the current horseshoe, if at all.

If you were to complete the horse shoe you would end up with about 19,000 capacity by my fag packet maths.

So I am not entirely sure how we have this stand towering above the horseshoe in the architectural plans, and a capacity of 17,400.

If the horseshoe capacity is 12,600, 6,000 of that will by the Lyndhurst alone, 3,300 will be the BPE and 3,300 the Devonport.

So how does this 4,800 stand tower over the Devonport, despite being of an equivalent capacity to the Lyndhurst opposite? Even taking for the corner sections, it shouldn't be markedly bigger and larger than the horseshoe.

5141781.jpg


So I would take the architectural drawings with a huge pinch of salt - I will be surprised if it ends up looking like that, especially considering those architectural drawings were released after the initial uproar, and after all parties knew the low capacity was a particularly divisive and thorny PR issue with the club's supporters.

As you say, one well released image in the papers got a lot of fans back on side after the initial plans turned most faces sour. You have to use your own judgement what it is going to look like.
 
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Bermudian Green":24jw9z1d said:
pilgrimgreen":24jw9z1d said:
It's clear sensible fans want the grandstand built ASAP and realise the income generated will stand us in good stead for years to come. Let's get it done.

I'm still not clear what additional income will be generated over and above what we already have. I thought everything within the footprint was to go to the football club, but that evidently isn't the case.

Look's nice, but that's about as far as it goes for me.
In all fairness, the conferencing/banquet facilities (plus I believe some non-weekday usage of the studio school) WILL go to Argyle. That money could be very much needed in these tight financial times.

It always rubs me up the wrong way however when someone so self-importantly declares that their opinion is what 'sensible people' believe and the post you quoted is no exception. Maybe some sensible fans have seen the sensible consequences of what happened when sensible owners at sensible clubs like Cardiff, Hull and Swansea built stadiums to match their potential and are now in the Premier League. Perhaps that's why not ALL sensible fans are hopping up and down with unbridled enthusiasm (even if I would begrudgingly rather have it than nothing).
 

Biggs

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EJH, not quoting all those pics again but you've compared opposite sides of the Life Centre! The front actually does look similar to the CGIs:

5101451.jpg


All I know re the Grandstand is that the architectural drawings show the new stand to be substantially taller than the horseshoe. At a guess I'd say the increased legroom, splitting of tiers, corner buildings cutting out about 2k of potential capacity, and the truss and roof adding to the height, are factors.

Regarding the legroom, at Southend on Saturday it felt like I was in a 5-6k stadium. The stadium actually holds 10k, but the legroom had to be a huge factor in that. I was 'sitting' in a space that simply wasn't big enough for one grown adult. The point is, legroom is going to be bigger in the new stand and is definitely a factor in the stand looking bigger than other c5k structures. Now for those padded seats....
 
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Biggs":3qg7oy9y said:
EJH, not quoting all those pics again but you've compared opposite sides of the Life Centre! The front actually does look similar to the CGIs:

5101451.jpg


All I know re the Grandstand is that the architectural drawings show the new stand to be substantially taller than the horseshoe. At a guess I'd say the increased legroom, splitting of tiers, corner buildings cutting out about 2k of potential capacity, and the truss and roof adding to the height, are factors.

Regarding the legroom, at Southend on Saturday it felt like I was in a 5-6k stadium. The stadium actually holds 10k, but the legroom had to be a huge factor in that. I was 'sitting' in a space that simply wasn't big enough for one grown adult. The point is, legroom is going to be bigger in the new stand and is definitely a factor in the stand looking bigger than other c5k structures. Now for those padded seats....

Thanks Biggs, I was faffing around trying to link that picture to my post, whether ejh was unaware of the main entrance to the life centre or was try to mislead others only he'll know, please keep things factual when trying to make a point hey.
 

ejh

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Don't_Panic":1437kmay said:
Thanks Biggs, I was faffing around trying to link that picture to my post, whether ejh was unaware of the main entrance to the life centre or was try to mislead others only he'll know, please keep things factual when trying to make a point hey.


Someone posted the images of the difference between the architectural drawings and the real life centre in a thread ages ago, I don't have the energy to trawl and find them - I was using poorly selected images from google which I have deleted now.

It doesn't detract from my main point though which is that the seating figures doesn't match up with the structure in the drawings, and similarly, that architects impressions can be misleading. There have been two impressions of the Mayflower redevelopment already which are totally different.
 

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Bermudian Green":ra8ovk1a said:
pilgrimgreen":ra8ovk1a said:
It's clear sensible fans want the grandstand built ASAP and realise the income generated will stand us in good stead for years to come. Let's get it done.

I'm still not clear what additional income will be generated over and above what we already have. I thought everything within the footprint was to go to the football club, but that evidently isn't the case.

Look's nice, but that's about as far as it goes for me.
Me too. Want it built, anything is better than what's there at present but huge reservations about the EXTRA income or profit rather being bandied about. We are not being told how much extra PROFIT is likely to be generated by the new facilities to the benefit of the club. 1 million extra income is not 1 million extra profit. Clearly the income streams are much less than originally indicated with little benefitting the club out of all the units etc. being built within the footprint of the stadium. I am therefore a little cynical about how much the football club will actually benefit per annum from the new facilities. I'm not convinced by some of the scaremongering surrounding this having to be passed or JB will pull the plug either. He wants it built as it will open the gates to further development in the city and if a little compromise is needed I am sure there is room for it. I'm not looking forward to a school/dentist etc standing on what was once and could in future be additional capacity and have severe reservations about the viability of future expansion. Still, what we all think will have virtually no bearing on the decision the planning department will make and it will almost certainly be waved through with a few possible amendments.
 

Biggs

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GreenSam":2cc6xkt5 said:
Bermudian Green":2cc6xkt5 said:
pilgrimgreen":2cc6xkt5 said:
It's clear sensible fans want the grandstand built ASAP and realise the income generated will stand us in good stead for years to come. Let's get it done.

I'm still not clear what additional income will be generated over and above what we already have. I thought everything within the footprint was to go to the football club, but that evidently isn't the case.

Look's nice, but that's about as far as it goes for me.
In all fairness, the conferencing/banquet facilities (plus I believe some non-weekday usage of the studio school) WILL go to Argyle. That money could be very much needed in these tight financial times.

It always rubs me up the wrong way however when someone so self-importantly declares that their opinion is what 'sensible people' believe and the post you quoted is no exception. Maybe some sensible fans have seen the sensible consequences of what happened when sensible owners at sensible clubs like Cardiff, Hull and Swansea built stadiums to match their potential and are now in the Premier League. Perhaps that's why not ALL sensible fans are hopping up and down with unbridled enthusiasm (even if I would begrudgingly rather have it than nothing).

Completely agree with that, but here's a thought. Probably an irrelevant one really, but would you rather have a c18k stadium at our spiritual home of Home Park, or a 25k soulless bowl in an industrial estate at Lee Mill? Those clubs are richer in some ways but poorer in others.
 

jerryatricjanner

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If it meant the ride they have had over recent seasons on the field then the latter.
 
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Biggs":9m5hscj4 said:
GreenSam":9m5hscj4 said:
Bermudian Green":9m5hscj4 said:
pilgrimgreen":9m5hscj4 said:
It's clear sensible fans want the grandstand built ASAP and realise the income generated will stand us in good stead for years to come. Let's get it done.

I'm still not clear what additional income will be generated over and above what we already have. I thought everything within the footprint was to go to the football club, but that evidently isn't the case.

Look's nice, but that's about as far as it goes for me.
In all fairness, the conferencing/banquet facilities (plus I believe some non-weekday usage of the studio school) WILL go to Argyle. That money could be very much needed in these tight financial times.

It always rubs me up the wrong way however when someone so self-importantly declares that their opinion is what 'sensible people' believe and the post you quoted is no exception. Maybe some sensible fans have seen the sensible consequences of what happened when sensible owners at sensible clubs like Cardiff, Hull and Swansea built stadiums to match their potential and are now in the Premier League. Perhaps that's why not ALL sensible fans are hopping up and down with unbridled enthusiasm (even if I would begrudgingly rather have it than nothing).

Completely agree with that, but here's a thought. Probably an irrelevant one really, but would you rather have a c18k stadium at our spiritual home of Home Park, or a 25k soulless bowl in an industrial estate at Lee Mill? Those clubs are richer in some ways but poorer in others.
I understand the point you're making but I'd still sooner have the bowl. It would feel different at first but other clubs have managed it without their souls imploding I guess- I mean it'd just be like buying a new pair of shoes wouldn't it? It'd feel odd losing the old pair and allowing the new pair to feel like yours but it'd be ok eventually. The bowl wouldn't have as much character granted but the result of PL football would soften that blow!
 
A

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JonB":4inm5dl7 said:
Thanks all for the above - I will author a template accordingly.

Just one thing, pafcintheplace - this isn't the ethereal 'them' saying this, this is my assessment of where we are, based upon everything that I saw & everything that I've heard which, given my fortunate place on the PASB, is quite extensive.

I actually think that the Club have been pretty objective in this matter; there's been little from Argyle lobbying fans for their overt support in this matter & not a jot of scaremongering that I've seen. The facts though - when fully scrutinised - are sobering.

There was a court test case a couple of years ago regarding petitions and the use of duplicate letters. It was deemed by the judges that petitions and multiple duplicate letters would be counted as only one letter. They decided that because people hadn't used their own words and written their own letters, they probably hadn't put that much thought into it. ( Or words to that effect.)