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Positive discrimination

Jul 29, 2010
12,014
57
themightykeithfear":taookj05 said:
So you think that trying to readdress the imbalance resulting from inequality by allocating some apprenticeships to those previously excluded is racism? That's some mental contortion.

No its not. There's an opportunity and they're excluding a race from applying, what are you not seeing there? You also seem fixated with it 'just being an apprenticeship' as if the size of opportunity being denied someone is relevant. That opportunity could be the springboard for anyone, of any race.

Whatever the intent, whatever the genuine imbalance, explicitly excluding one group while encouraging others is denying the opportunity to that one group.

Look at it this way. The age old poster boy for racist attitudes is the abhorent sign landlords used to put up. "No dogs, no Irish, no blacks".

What you are arguing is that somehow flipping it round to "just dogs, Irish and blacks" is in some way more acceptable. Well it simply isn't.

Racism is a vast historic societal mess that needs root and branch remedies. The problem with undoubtedly well intentioned initiatives such as these though is they risk simply shifting the feeling of resentment and unfairness from one group to another group... in this case the majority.

'Ah diddums' they may well say, the white majority have had all the advantages for far too long. And they'd be right in that historic assessment of course.

But you just can't go about levelling up opportunities for all by denying opportunities to some. That's the self same problem you're trying to fix.

I don't have the answer to it all but this ain't it. There's some good sense coming over, from both sides of this discussion but the square that can't be circled is you can't rebrand an illegal product and make it legal. Putting cocaine in a sherbet dib dab packet doesn't stop it being cocaine and repackaging positive discrimination as some sort of philanthropic social engineering doesn't stop it being positive discrimination.

Edit - my God the Italy Austria game must be boring... if I've found my way back to this bleddy board again :roll:
 
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GreenThing

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Sep 13, 2003
3,860
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Plymouth
X Isle":3tf6119u said:
themightykeithfear":3tf6119u said:
So you think that trying to readdress the imbalance resulting from inequality by allocating some apprenticeships to those previously excluded is racism? That's some mental contortion.

No its not. There's an opportunity and they're excluding a race from applying, what are you not seeing there? You also seem fixated with it 'just being an apprenticeship' as if the size of opportunity being denied someone is relevant. That opportunity could be the springboard for anyone, of any race.

Whatever the intent, whatever the genuine imbalance, explicitly excluding one group while encouraging others is denying the opportunity to that one group.

Look at it this way. The age old poster boy for racist attitudes is the abhorent sign landlords used to put up. "No dogs, no Irish, no blacks".

What you are arguing is that somehow flipping it round to "just dogs, Irish and blacks" is in some way more acceptable. Well it simply isn't.

Racism is a vast historic societal mess that needs root and branch remedies. The problem with undoubtedly well intentioned initiatives such as these though is they risk simply shifting the feeling of resentment and unfairness from one group to another group... in this case the majority.

'Ah diddums' they may well say, the white majority have had all the advantages for far too long. And they'd be right in that historic assessment of course.

But you just can't go about levelling up opportunities for all by denying opportunities to some. That's the self same problem you're trying to fix.

I don't have the answer to it all but this ain't it. There's some good sense coming over, from both sides of this discussion but the square that can't be circled is you can't rebrand an illegal product and make it legal. Putting cocaine in a sherbet dib dab packet doesn't stop it being cocaine and repackaging positive discrimination as some sort of philanthropic social engineering doesn't stop it being positive discrimination.

Edit - my God the Italy Austria game must be boring... if I've found my way back to this bleddy board again :roll:

Welcome back X-Isle. I agree with every word.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,725
139
Well it’s the law so maybe you want to scream at the government.

As far as I’m aware not one single person has objected to this saying they have been denied an opportunity though so point me in the right direction if I’m mistaken.

All I’ve seen is furious white middle aged men seething about something that will never affect them and that evidentially is only doing good. I can’t imagine why.
 
Dec 27, 2004
732
25
Bidford on Avon
themightykeithfear":28hnshf4 said:
Well it’s the law so maybe you want to scream at the government.

As far as I’m aware not one single person has objected to this saying they have been denied an opportunity though so point me in the right direction if I’m mistaken.

All I’ve seen is furious white middle aged men seething about something that will never affect them and that evidentially is only doing good. I can’t imagine why.

This is the big failing for me whenever anymore tries to objectively discuss this subject people immediately start talking of screaming and the old well worn trope of furious white middle aged men.

The entrenchment by some at either end of the argument just shelling the silos on either side means it just becomes a meaningless shouting match.

X's post was a fair assessment for me - as he said he doesn't have the answer but should at least be allowed to discuss it without heckling.

This board is becoming too polarised.

I've raised things based on facts I know like general procedures when armed etc, but also distinguished when it's an opinion.

There are a lot of things based on opinion that seem to be reported as fact.

For some context I have a close friend who's very senior in HR at a large company who also sits in the centre and they're comment on a lot of the policies being used now was "their unrealistic and unsustainable"

I don't pretend to have the answers, but the current climate demeans the chances of real progress as it's too counter productive.

Any policy / thinking has to get the majority on the bus or it just pushes the problem around without resolving.

Yes I am white and middle aged.

Furious - not at all :cool:
 
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May 16, 2016
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On the flip side of it.

Many years ago, myself and another ex forces guy got jobs fairly easily at a newly opened factory in plymouth. It felt a bit "too easy" to get the job. He then spent a fair amount of time before starting there worrying if he'd got it to "fill a quota" as he said.

Until he knew I also had misgivings, he felt patronised and thought everything he had achieved and worked for previously had been overlooked / ignored just to salve someone's conscience. (Ironically, usually a middle aged white male trying so hard to prove they're not racist but end up being patronising to non whites. Sounds familiar)
 
Jul 29, 2010
12,014
57
themightykeithfear":20tn9g0h said:
Well it’s the law so maybe you want to scream at the government.

As far as I’m aware not one single person has objected to this saying they have been denied an opportunity though so point me in the right direction if I’m mistaken.

All I’ve seen is furious white middle aged men seething about something that will never affect them and that evidentially is only doing good. I can’t imagine why.

I haven't screamed since I was a child.

I haven't been "furious" since Kenny Cooper left.

I haven't "seethed" since Peter Ridsdale left.

I certainly haven't met you so you wouldn't know my age or my ethnicity.

Yet you assume I am all of those things, and more besides.... the pointed finale to your post is clearly a cowardly insinuation that I am a racist.

Now, making assumptions without facts based on your own internal stereotypes is called prejudice, and prejudice is the bedrock of all 'isms'.

Congratulations therefore in showing your own (ahem) colours* while failing to correctly expose mine. I couldn't have put you down any firmer than you have done yourself there :lol:

Joe. Spot on about polarisation. It means a sensible discussion is just not possible any longer. It isn't just an Opinion Board thing, not even a PASOTI thing, its endemic in society worldwide.

Its easy to blame the Cheeto haired sh*t weasle for that but it was happening before he ascended to the leader if the free world.

Its why I stepped off this forum. I love a good discussion but the ground rules of civil debate have been ripped up by people like TMKF here. Rather than attack the opinion, they attack the person with the opinion, imposing their own lazy stereotypes onto anyone who disagrees with their viewpoint.

It was endemic during Brexit... and funnily enough I had to be an old white racist to fit their stereotypes then too... plus uneducated, plus a Wetherspoons customer too apparently.

Joe, do as I've done and step away from even trying to engage with such people and the labels they like to dish out to people. Their prejudice, whilst trying to accuse you of prejudice should show you the hypocrisy of their methods and the pointlessness in trying to open closed minds.

Straying back onto this board has been very useful. It confirms why I stay away.

Yours sincerely a furious?, seething?, screaming?, white?, middle aged? racist? :yawn:

*that is a flag pun, not a remark about skin colour before the false narrative starts up again :roll:
 
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Nov 15, 2011
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Blimey all this poor me stuff, I’m welling up.

But can any of you give me an example of an actual person who was reported to have been denied an opportunity by one apprenticeship out of 1,700 vacancies being allocated to someone of ethnicity?

As I say successive governments have thought it’s a good idea as does the Equalities Commission , the only people I’ve heard who object to it are people it doesn’t affect.

You can see from the boardroom to this government’s handing out jobs to mates that we don’t have a level playing field so maybe this is a small step in giving everyone a chance to compete for the better jobs going on an equal footing.
 
Dec 27, 2004
732
25
Bidford on Avon
themightykeithfear":240mtbk5 said:
Blimey all this poor me stuff, I’m welling up.

But can any of you give me an example of an actual person who was reported to have been denied an opportunity by one apprenticeship out of 1,700 vacancies being allocated to someone of ethnicity?

As I say successive governments have thought it’s a good idea as does the Equalities Commission , the only people I’ve heard who object to it are people it doesn’t affect.

You can see from the boardroom to this government’s handing out jobs to mates that we don’t have a level playing field so maybe this is a small step in giving everyone a chance to compete for the better jobs going on an equal footing.


It wasn't poor me and your response encapsulates perfectly where things are.

The endless pigeon holing is getting really old.

I really like a lot of what you post, but the whole point raised was that an equal footing should be that for all.

I can understand levelling things, but this shouldn't just be sliding the bias to another point.

I believe it was the West Midlands Police that refused to give out pass marks for a whole intake and didn't accept a single white recruit.

How can that ever be perceived as fair?

We'll probably never agree on this one and i'll be painted as a BNP zealot or something extreme.

The current approach is actually increasing division in my opinion, not promoting harmony.

It's a dream for Boris too. Never mind the incompetence, just look at x, y or z
 
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Nov 15, 2011
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Joe when I was talking about the the white middle aged I was referring to the Twitter mob, Farage and the likes, I know they are middle aged and white I don’t know what people are on here.

I certainly don’t think you’re BNP or anything of the like, I like your posts and as I’ve always said love debating these issues and hearing other argyle fans points of view.

Also I can understand how some people may think in this instance positive discrimination may set an unfair precedent.

Personally I think at this apprenticeship level it’s a good way to level up the playing field for when the real jobs become available and I haven’t heard one potentially affected young person object to it.
 
Apr 15, 2004
2,848
91
East Devon
X Isle":3p6vllkq said:
Straying back onto this board has been very useful. It confirms why I stay away.

Yours sincerely a furious?, seething?, screaming?, white?, middle aged? racist? :yawn:
Oh come on X Isle ..... You can't turn up here after so long away, put someone down in your trade mark ruthless style of old then disappear again complaining about a lack of civility in the debate. Well obviously you can..... but I don't think it's blowing smoke up your nether regions to say your contributions were always articulate, well argued, often funny and sometimes pretty brutal .. So I think I'm not the only one who'd be disappointed if you did - even if we did often vehemently disagree.

Personally I don't get why tmkf gets so much flak - he rarely if ever indulges in direct personal attacks and argues his points well imo (maybe that's why). You chose to take umbridge at his post in a way I thought was quite disproportionate. He made a few generalisations about the sort of people who get most irate about this subject then you jumped on him for daring to suggest YOU are a racist. Isn't that the sort if snow-flakery I recall you used to rail about in the past? Sure, you have a point that such sweeping stereotypes are always unhelpful and do lead to the kind of polarisrisation in debate Joe mentioned - but let's be honest we all do it occasionally - including you. But I'm sure his post wasn't aimed directly at you - certainly I didn't interpret it that way and was surprised at your response.

Stick around X, with you and Frank now back it's like the old days. :thumbs:

Get Outlook for Android
 
Oct 9, 2003
3,547
27
Aberdeen
Ave_IT":1skpr3r4 said:
X Isle":1skpr3r4 said:
Straying back onto this board has been very useful. It confirms why I stay away.

Yours sincerely a furious?, seething?, screaming?, white?, middle aged? racist? :yawn:
Oh come on X Isle ..... You can't turn up here after so long away, put someone down in your trade mark ruthless style of old then disappear again complaining about a lack of civility in the debate. Well obviously you can..... but I don't think it's blowing smoke up your nether regions to say your contributions were always articulate, well argued, often funny and sometimes pretty brutal .. So I think I'm not the only one who'd be disappointed if you did - even if we did often vehemently disagree.

Personally I don't get why tmkf gets so much flak - he rarely if ever indulges in direct personal attacks and argues his points well imo (maybe that's why). You chose to take umbridge at his post in a way I thought was quite disproportionate. He made a few generalisations about the sort of people who get most irate about this subject then you jumped on him for daring to suggest YOU are a racist. Isn't that the sort if snow-flakery I recall you used to rail about in the past? Sure, you have a point that such sweeping stereotypes are always unhelpful and do lead to the kind of polarisrisation in debate Joe mentioned - but let's be honest we all do it occasionally - including you. But I'm sure his post wasn't aimed directly at you - certainly I didn't interpret it that way and was surprised at your response.

Stick around X, with you and Frank now back it's like the old days. :thumbs:

Get Outlook for Android

I’d like X’y to stick around as well.

As for tmkf, The trouble is they do it all the time. Check out his second post on this thread, there it is again, this time against Greenthing. Inference and insinuation of racism when someone says something they don’t agree with. On different threads they’ve tried it on Potty, myself and even Guiri I think. Now Greenthing and X-Isle on this thread. It’s not nice having that thrown at you so I completely understand X-Isle’s reaction.

Combine that with anecdotes that often contain ‘apparently’ or ‘I hear’ (in other words ‘someone said on Twitter …’); a determination not to accept any suggestion that someone else might be right; and dismissing factual evidence - well I think maybe that’s why they get so much flak.

I have no problem with them having an opinion, nor indeed what that opinion might be, but I don’t like it when someone tries to ‘force’ that opinion on others and will not listen (read). The art of debate is to consider what others say (despite ourselves, I think even you and I have managed that over the years :lol: ).

Debate is not about dismissing other perspectives - and definitely not about defending their opinion by putting other people in boxes. This is a microcosm of society today. People afraid to say what they think for fear of being labelled. Result is that resentment builds and extremists tap in to the sentiment.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,725
139
Frank as I've said I was talking about the usual suspects, Farage Fox and the likes on Twitter, look at my post, who I know are white and middle aged, it obviously wasn't about people on here because as pointed out I don't know what age or colour people here are. I didn't insinuate anything about anyone on here and have never done that. Asking someone to explain their views isn't insinuating anything. I never ignore facts and I never force my opinion on anyone, I don't even know what that means, I give my opinion and anyone can agree or disagree.

And I've said before I have no idea if anyone is racist as I don't know what goes on in their heads, what I have said eg with Potty and the n word is that its a remark that many people would find offensive.

Broadly, besides Potty, I don't think I have heard anyone on here say anything that can be deemed racist, what I have heard is things that IMO show a lack of understanding of what it feels like to be in someone else's shoes, and that whatever grievances we may have they may not be as bad as faced by other people. That's my view and I'm happy to debate it with anyone.

As for closing down debate, the only person who's done that is Potty, he cancelled me and even asked other people to cancel me. I've read about this it's called cancel culture.
 
Dec 27, 2004
732
25
Bidford on Avon
themightykeithfear":101dt1ey said:
Joe when I was talking about the the white middle aged I was referring to the Twitter mob, Farage and the likes, I know they are middle aged and white I don’t know what people are on here.

I certainly don’t think you’re BNP or anything of the like, I like your posts and as I’ve always said love debating these issues and hearing other argyle fans points of view.

Also I can understand how some people may think in this instance positive discrimination may set an unfair precedent.

Personally I think at this apprenticeship level it’s a good way to level up the playing field for when the real jobs become available and I haven’t heard one potentially affected young person object to it.

:thumbup:

I was talking about the talk of quotas per se, not just with apprentices.

I don't think they are necessarily a good thing.

I get the point about levelling the playing field, but I'm not sure that actually happens.

The same as the appraisals being applied to a bell curve.

Giving appraisals and carrying out interviews is supposed to be a positive, but often is used as a stick to beat people with.

That's straying off topic slightly, but I often see the same approach being applied.

That's my issue with rigid quotas
 
Oct 9, 2003
3,547
27
Aberdeen
Pilgrim_Joe":l9q1vitj said:
themightykeithfear":l9q1vitj said:
Joe when I was talking about the the white middle aged I was referring to the Twitter mob, Farage and the likes, I know they are middle aged and white I don’t know what people are on here.

I certainly don’t think you’re BNP or anything of the like, I like your posts and as I’ve always said love debating these issues and hearing other argyle fans points of view.

Also I can understand how some people may think in this instance positive discrimination may set an unfair precedent.

Personally I think at this apprenticeship level it’s a good way to level up the playing field for when the real jobs become available and I haven’t heard one potentially affected young person object to it.

:thumbup:

I was talking about the talk of quotas per se, not just with apprentices.

I don't think they are necessarily a good thing.

I get the point about levelling the playing field, but I'm not sure that actually happens.

The same as the appraisals being applied to a bell curve.

Giving appraisals and carrying out interviews is supposed to be a positive, but often is used as a stick to beat people with.

That's straying off topic slightly, but I often see the same approach being applied.

That's my issue with rigid quotas

Echo the comments on appraisals. Drove me mad when I had to fit a bell curve. Basically means that all staff, year on year demonstrate the same level of ability - no better or worse one year to the last. A bit like being Everton.