Euro 24, England v Slovakia | Page 23 | PASOTI
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Euro 24, England v Slovakia

As each game passes I'm beginning to see a second and, seemingly, more serious probIem with having so many foreign players in our PL. For many years the majority of places in the top clubs' squads have been filled with foreign players. People suggested that the decreasing numbers of English players we have to choose from as a cause of our failure to win tournaments.

But having watched the first four England games I see another effect this influx of players has caused. The versions of Saka and Foden we have seen are vastly different to the players we see at Arsenal and Man City. The Real Madrid player of the year Bellingham is streets ahead of the man I've watched in these 4 games. Kane, already a goal- scoring legend after a single season in the Bundesliga, has reminded me of that Welsh fireman we had. John Stones has not once carried the ball out of defence and marauded forward. At City, when fit, he is like a reincarnation of the great Beckenbauer. For England he looks more Darren Purse.

Southgate, Holland and co may be part of the problem, but I genuinely think that these players I mention are better players when surrounded by the likes Odegard, Rhodri, De Bruyne and co. The number of times in these 4 games we have seen England players exasperated when in possession, arms out asking for movement. At their clubs Stones and Alexander-Arnold don't just wander into midfield on a whim, their movement is facilitated by the players who create the opportunity.

The lack of movement and the lethargy is hard to miss. The reason for it is more complicated.

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this or a similar suggestion may have got a mention.
I would say the real problem stems from football culture at youth levels.

For example, in France, they have scouts seeking talent from the streets where things are very different - the bumps are harder, everything is quicker, close control is honed better in tighter zones of action, exhibitionist skill is crafted, each kid will learn how to attune their core strength and centre of gravity without the input of a coach/trainer applying principles that reflect the average requirement.
These kids will develop levels of agility and stamina that will match the technical dynamism of the very best prospects - athleticism and discipline would come afterwards with professional training.
With the 'Street-Football' talents who arrive at academies come the skillsets that the other kids look at and want to try themselves - thus influencing development in these top academies with techniques and dynamism that your standard coach can only try to establish.

We don't really have the same culture here so we don't have enough technical prospects coming through.

The reason Messrs Bellingham, Foden, Saka and Kane look better at their clubs is because they are training and playing with more players who, from very early ages, have developed skillsets in environments with far greater technical pressure where everything is quicker.
Each of the aforementioned four shows a level and blend of talent that fits well with players who present 'Street-Football' credentials, but we don't produce enough of them because there's not enough influence from the streets.

I'm sure that might sound a bit preachy and, perhaps, defeatist, but the game's changed and we're lagging because our culture of football is limited by it's own arrogance.
In youth football, like with many things in this country, we have a lazy habit of dealing with one problem at a time.
The very best will always, like the very best business people, look at where they are and compare that with where they want to be within a set period of time, they will then identify what needs to change and how that fabric of change can be best laid - that's called a strategy, and it's the one thing our football culture, from the top to the bottom, just doesn't have.

So, I would not be remotely surprised if the men's England team win nothing in my lifetime - it's actually what I expect.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm pretty certain I won't be.
 
Feb 13, 2021
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Premier League footballers surrounded by foreign footballers whose collective skill sets are light years away from what the English FA deem the cream of the crop of the English playing pool
If the Premier League was not awash with the financial riches that are extremely well documented would we have the influx of foreign players that when representing their respective countries show the shortcomings in England's finest
 
Aug 23, 2006
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Home Park
I think there is more to this than just the manager. I think the blame lies somewhere within with the FA.

Robson took Ipswich from medorcity to Europe to win the Ueffa Cup. Hoddle did wonders with Swindon. Taylor did the same with Watford and Sven-Göran Eriksson and Fabio Capello domestic managerial records are very impressive.

Yet when these managers are put in charge of England it's the same old story disappointment. I don't have the answer, but it has to be bigger than just the manager. I think the blame lies somewhere within with the FA.
 
Oct 17, 2008
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Essex
The trouble with England scraping through yesterday all will be forgiven in some quarters & the cracks will be papered over.
Southgate is the luckiest ever England Manager with qualifying draws & even ended up in the soft side of the draw this time but as soon as we come up against a half decent side our shortcomings are high lighted
Fortunately, I am not some quarters and will not be forgiving Southgate. England has got some brilliant players who all want to be the best in the world ... what I see is mediocre, boring, defensive football. Football which lacks zest, imagination and for much of the time skill. Passing around the back ... whats that about. That's what we did in League 1 and it was truly awful. Southgate must take the blame here and if his ego is so big that he really can't see that he is the problem then the England football team may win games but will never achieve greatness ..
 

memory man

✨Pasoti Donor✨
Nov 28, 2011
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I would say the real problem stems from football culture at youth levels.

For example, in France, they have scouts seeking talent from the streets where things are very different - the bumps are harder, everything is quicker, close control is honed better in tighter zones of action, exhibitionist skill is crafted, each kid will learn how to attune their core strength and centre of gravity without the input of a coach/trainer applying principles that reflect the average requirement.
These kids will develop levels of agility and stamina that will match the technical dynamism of the very best prospects - athleticism and discipline would come afterwards with professional training.
With the 'Street-Football' talents who arrive at academies come the skillsets that the other kids look at and want to try themselves - thus influencing development in these top academies with techniques and dynamism that your standard coach can only try to establish.

We don't really have the same culture here so we don't have enough technical prospects coming through.

The reason Messrs Bellingham, Foden, Saka and Kane look better at their clubs is because they are training and playing with more players who, from very early ages, have developed skillsets in environments with far greater technical pressure where everything is quicker.
Each of the aforementioned four shows a level and blend of talent that fits well with players who present 'Street-Football' credentials, but we don't produce enough of them because there's not enough influence from the streets.

I'm sure that might sound a bit preachy and, perhaps, defeatist, but the game's changed and we're lagging because our culture of football is limited by it's own arrogance.
In youth football, like with many things in this country, we have a lazy habit of dealing with one problem at a time.
The very best will always, like the very best business people, look at where they are and compare that with where they want to be within a set period of time, they will then identify what needs to change and how that fabric of change can be best laid - that's called a strategy, and it's the one thing our football culture, from the top to the bottom, just doesn't have.

So, I would not be remotely surprised if the men's England team win nothing in my lifetime - it's actually what I expect.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm pretty certain I won't be.
Wow! I really love this theory. You have brought back several memories. Just after the first Gulf War I was on a ship based in Dubai. I was out for a walk with a shipmate and we marvelled at a young lad wearing a long, gown-like garment. As the ball came to him, on what we would call waste-ground, he would deftly pull it up to display an amazing first touch. And on another occasion I remember being ridiculed in the canteen at work after England had beaten Cyprus 5-0. I suggested that long-term, it was quite worrying that most Cyprus players had a better first touch than any of ours. I intimated that once the minnows became physically stronger and developed more tactical awareness, that superior first touch would close the gap. Thank you for your post. An excellent and well thought out read.
 
Jan 4, 2005
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It's hard to condense one's thoughts into this kind of forum. I think the quality of the English players we do have in the PL is very high. That's why I think there is something else. You make a very good point about the lack of adventure in our players to challenge themselves abroad (and our coaches too). But I still think Rice is a better player now he has Odegard each week and that De Bruyne's vision helps Foden? I do think being surrounded by better players must be an advantage. How many of our subs last night would get in the City, Arsenal or Liverpool sides? As ever with me, just a thought expressed out loud.
What I have failed to understand is why the pace of England's game is so pedestrian. I have read so many times in the football press in the past that European and global players joining Premiership teams have found the pace and physicality difficult to cope with and it takes them a season to bed in. Now we are seeing wide players beating the likes of the much vaunted speedy Walker for pace and yellow cards to opposition physical defenders in abundance.
Has the worm turned or are our Premiership players too knackered after enduring a recently past season ?
 
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May 29, 2015
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No he won't be forgiven. If we win the Euros it will be down to the players. If we dont it's because of him. The guy can't win to be honest. The role of England manager has always been an unenviable job ever since I remember, and that's going back to Ramsay. The amount of criticism some of them got, Robson and Taylor in particular. Maybe that's why English managers are not queuing up for it. Whatever happens, and I genuinely believe we have a chance of winning it, history will show he has been reasonably successful as manager, whether going by win percentages or tournament record. Plus he seems a really decent bloke. If we get knocked out he will resign and some people will get their wish. Let's hope his successor will continue to improve England's record.
 
Jul 10, 2022
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The trouble with England scraping through yesterday all will be forgiven in some quarters & the cracks will be papered over.
Southgate is the luckiest ever England Manager with qualifying draws & even ended up in the soft side of the draw this time but as soon as we come up against a half decent side our shortcomings are high lighted
I can't see that Southgate is lucky he can only beat what's put in front of him, and he usually does. It's not his fault that Portugal can't beat Georgia France scrape past Austria with an own goal and Spain can only beat Albania I-0. there are no easy games these days and we are still in it. Long may it continue.
 
Oct 17, 2008
1,221
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Essex
No he won't be forgiven. If we win the Euros it will be down to the players. If we dont it's because of him. The guy can't win to be honest. The role of England manager has always been an unenviable job ever since I remember, and that's going back to Ramsay. The amount of criticism some of them got, Robson and Taylor in particular. Maybe that's why English managers are not queuing up for it. Whatever happens, and I genuinely believe we have a chance of winning it, history will show he has been reasonably successful as manager, whether going by win percentages or tournament record. Plus he seems a really decent bloke. If we get knocked out he will resign and some people will get their wish. Let's hope his successor will continue to improve England's record.
From my point of view ... its not all about winning ... it is also about the way we play. I would have no problem if we lost but gave our all. Iceland or Scotland would be totally forgiven for playing like we do because they are small fish who would be overachieving. No one would begrudge them grinding out results.
England, on the other hand have two of the greatest leagues in the world with world class players and resources. I don't expect a win every match but I do expect the team to play as best as they can, I expect the team to play with some panache and expect their strategy to contain some excitement. As it is, who in their right mind would want to pay good money to watch this drivel. If we carry on playing like we do and somehow win the tournament, I would still want Southgate gone. Football is a sport but for those watching it is also entertainment, they go hand in hand. Get rid of Southgate and keep the players ...
 

memory man

✨Pasoti Donor✨
Nov 28, 2011
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What I have failed to understand is why the pace of England's game is so pedestrian. I have read so many times in the football press in the past that European and global players joining Premiership teams have found the pace and physicality difficult to cope with and it takes them a season to bed in. Now we are seeing wide players beating the likes of the much vaunted speedy Walker for pace and yellow cards to opposition physical defenders in abundance.
Has the worm turned or are our Premiership players too knackered after enduring a recently past season ?
Another good point
 
May 8, 2011
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The trouble with England scraping through yesterday all will be forgiven in some quarters & the cracks will be papered over.
Southgate is the luckiest ever England Manager with qualifying draws & even ended up in the soft side of the draw this time but as soon as we come up against a half decent side our shortcomings are high lighted
0ne of the football cliche is that it is better to have a lucky manager than a good one.
 
Sep 6, 2006
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I don't know what to tell you. It finished 0-0. It was a draw. I imagine this conversation is as dull for everyone else as it is for me so I'll leave you to your compulsive contrarianism if that's ok.
I thought it was an easy question but I'll help you out. England won on penalties. So how many top 20 sides has Southgate teams beaten?