Euro 24, England v Slovakia | Page 22 | PASOTI
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Euro 24, England v Slovakia

Quinny

Quinny

Jul 15, 2006
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memory man said:
As each game passes I'm beginning to see a second and, seemingly, more serious probIem with having so many foreign players in our PL. For many years the majority of places in the top clubs' squads have been filled with foreign players. People suggested that the decreasing numbers of English players we have to choose from as a cause of our failure to win tournaments.

But having watched the first four England games I see another effect this influx of players has caused. The versions of Saka and Foden we have seen are vastly different to the players we see at Arsenal and Man City. The Real Madrid player of the year Bellingham is streets ahead of the man I've watched in these 4 games. Kane, already a goal- scoring legend after a single season in the Bundesliga, has reminded me of that Welsh fireman we had. John Stones has not once carried the ball out of defence and marauded forward. At City, when fit, he is like a reincarnation of the great Beckenbauer. For England he looks more Darren Purse.

Southgate, Holland and co may be part of the problem, but I genuinely think that these players I mention are better players when surrounded by the likes Odegard, Rhodri, De Bruyne and co. The number of times in these 4 games we have seen England players exasperated when in possession, arms out asking for movement. At their clubs Stones and Alexander-Arnold don't just wander into midfield on a whim, their movement is facilitated by the players who create the opportunity.

The lack of movement and the lethargy is hard to miss. The reason for it is more complicated.

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this or a similar suggestion may have got a mention.
Click to expand...

I get what you're trying to say, I'm not entirely sure I agree with it. You say that people suggest a decreased number of English players has been a reason behind our failure to win tournaments, but our record, 1966 aside, before the proliferation of foreign players in the PL has hardly been sparking. I recall an argument for an increase in foreign players which would improve the quality of English players, and if anything I'd say England's performance in the WC and Euros has been better in the last 20-odd years than any time before that. The team haven't played as they would do for their respective clubs this tournament, that's an undeniable fact, but to blame that on the influx of foreign players? Don't forget 7 of yesterday's team were in the Euro semi in 2020 (6 were in the final, but Saka was dropped to make room for Mount), and eight were in the QF game against France in 2022 (and I'm still 'what if' if Kane hadn't missed that bloody penalty). This team does look jaded and very unbalanced: I don't think this has anything to do with foreign players in the PL, more that Southgate has taken this team as far as he can, and he's simply run out of steam. Or ideas.

If anything, what has been a problem in the English game for many decades has been a reluctance for English players to play abroad, especially those who are younger or in their prime. Yes, Bellingham is only 21 and plays in Spain, but he left England when he was 17 to join Dortmund. Kane's in Germany now, but arguably, at 30 he's now on the other side of being at his peak and maybe has one last major tournament in him after this one. But rather than holding onto our national assets we should be encouraging more to play in Europe - I think that would improve the quality of our best players.
 
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CoventryGreen

CoventryGreen

Feb 22, 2021
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Balham Green said:
And why are the vast majority of top coaches from abroad?
Click to expand...
They are better than English coaches? Pep or Klopp would cry at what Southgate has done to Foden and Trent. The more ability a player has, the less Southgate has a clue how to use them. Schumacher is a better coach than Southgate, he tried using 2 number 10's quite well last season, have you seen Southgate try that?
 
memory man

memory man

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Quinny said:
I get what you're trying to say, I'm not entirely sure I agree with it. You say that people suggest a decreased number of English players has been a reason behind our failure to win tournaments, but our record, 1966 aside, before the proliferation of foreign players in the PL has hardly been sparking. I recall an argument for an increase in foreign players which would improve the quality of English players, and if anything I'd say England's performance in the WC and Euros has been better in the last 20-odd years than any time before that. The team haven't played as they would do for their respective clubs this tournament, that's an undeniable fact, but to blame that on the influx of foreign players? Don't forget 7 of yesterday's team were in the Euro semi in 2020 (6 were in the final, but Saka was dropped to make room for Mount), and eight were in the QF game against France in 2022 (and I'm still 'what if' if Kane hadn't missed that bloody penalty). This team does look jaded and very unbalanced: I don't think this has anything to do with foreign players in the PL, more that Southgate has taken this team as far as he can, and he's simply run out of steam. Or ideas.

If anything, what has been a problem in the English game for many decades has been a reluctance for English players to play abroad, especially those who are younger or in their prime. Yes, Bellingham is only 21 and plays in Spain, but he left England when he was 17 to join Dortmund. Kane's in Germany now, but arguably, at 30 he's now on the other side of being at his peak and maybe has one last major tournament in him after this one. But rather than holding onto our national assets we should be encouraging more to play in Europe - I think that would improve the quality of our best players.
Click to expand...
It's hard to condense one's thoughts into this kind of forum. I think the quality of the English players we do have in the PL is very high. That's why I think there is something else. You make a very good point about the lack of adventure in our players to challenge themselves abroad (and our coaches too). But I still think Rice is a better player now he has Odegard each week and that De Bruyne's vision helps Foden? I do think being surrounded by better players must be an advantage. How many of our subs last night would get in the City, Arsenal or Liverpool sides? As ever with me, just a thought expressed out loud.
 
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Quinny

Quinny

Jul 15, 2006
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phil thefluter24 said:
The trouble with England scraping through yesterday all will be forgiven in some quarters & the cracks will be papered over.
Southgate is the luckiest ever England Manager with qualifying draws & even ended up in the soft side of the draw this time but as soon as we come up against a half decent side our shortcomings are high lighted
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be at all surprised, as poor as we are, if England stumbled into the final.

No, I haven't been drinking.
 
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The Unseen Green

The Unseen Green

Jan 31, 2024
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Like a crane fly, all over the place.
memory man said:
As each game passes I'm beginning to see a second and, seemingly, more serious probIem with having so many foreign players in our PL. For many years the majority of places in the top clubs' squads have been filled with foreign players. People suggested that the decreasing numbers of English players we have to choose from as a cause of our failure to win tournaments.

But having watched the first four England games I see another effect this influx of players has caused. The versions of Saka and Foden we have seen are vastly different to the players we see at Arsenal and Man City. The Real Madrid player of the year Bellingham is streets ahead of the man I've watched in these 4 games. Kane, already a goal- scoring legend after a single season in the Bundesliga, has reminded me of that Welsh fireman we had. John Stones has not once carried the ball out of defence and marauded forward. At City, when fit, he is like a reincarnation of the great Beckenbauer. For England he looks more Darren Purse.

Southgate, Holland and co may be part of the problem, but I genuinely think that these players I mention are better players when surrounded by the likes Odegard, Rhodri, De Bruyne and co. The number of times in these 4 games we have seen England players exasperated when in possession, arms out asking for movement. At their clubs Stones and Alexander-Arnold don't just wander into midfield on a whim, their movement is facilitated by the players who create the opportunity.

The lack of movement and the lethargy is hard to miss. The reason for it is more complicated.

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this or a similar suggestion may have got a mention.
Click to expand...
I would say the real problem stems from football culture at youth levels.

For example, in France, they have scouts seeking talent from the streets where things are very different - the bumps are harder, everything is quicker, close control is honed better in tighter zones of action, exhibitionist skill is crafted, each kid will learn how to attune their core strength and centre of gravity without the input of a coach/trainer applying principles that reflect the average requirement.
These kids will develop levels of agility and stamina that will match the technical dynamism of the very best prospects - athleticism and discipline would come afterwards with professional training.
With the 'Street-Football' talents who arrive at academies come the skillsets that the other kids look at and want to try themselves - thus influencing development in these top academies with techniques and dynamism that your standard coach can only try to establish.

We don't really have the same culture here so we don't have enough technical prospects coming through.

The reason Messrs Bellingham, Foden, Saka and Kane look better at their clubs is because they are training and playing with more players who, from very early ages, have developed skillsets in environments with far greater technical pressure where everything is quicker.
Each of the aforementioned four shows a level and blend of talent that fits well with players who present 'Street-Football' credentials, but we don't produce enough of them because there's not enough influence from the streets.

I'm sure that might sound a bit preachy and, perhaps, defeatist, but the game's changed and we're lagging because our culture of football is limited by it's own arrogance.
In youth football, like with many things in this country, we have a lazy habit of dealing with one problem at a time.
The very best will always, like the very best business people, look at where they are and compare that with where they want to be within a set period of time, they will then identify what needs to change and how that fabric of change can be best laid - that's called a strategy, and it's the one thing our football culture, from the top to the bottom, just doesn't have.

So, I would not be remotely surprised if the men's England team win nothing in my lifetime - it's actually what I expect.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm pretty certain I won't be.
 
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