• Welcome to PASOTI (Sponsored by GA Solictors and Lang & Potter)
  • Hello guests - don't forget that by registering and signing up for Pasoti you'll see less adverts plus receive extras like free match tickets, taking part in polls, joining in the chat room and more. Come and join us!

Coronavirus (merged threads)

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,761
153
Gairloch
Large households even more so. And the level of poverty and inequality.
What references are you using BG? All the charts I’ve looked at (late 2010s seem to be the latest available) seem to suggest we’re pretty much average across Europe. In both respects we’re better than countries like Spain and Italy, and on a par with Germany, Portugal and Ireland. Worse than France and much worse than smaller countries like Finland and the Netherlands.

I’m not saying average is anything to be proud of, but if the suggestion is that the UK has markedly worse rates of poverty and inequality than the other major European countries, do you have more up to date references to support that?
 

The Doctor

Schuey Sponsor
NHS Cake Donor
T.O Support
Sep 15, 2003
6,894
791
I think that a lot of British people are very selfish and only interested in themselves and getting what they want and that this has something to do with it. Almost all of the best measures to limit the impact of the virus depend on putting the interests of others first (distancing, not travelling, masks, even vaccination). A lot of Brits are not very good at putting others first.
 

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,761
153
Gairloch
I think that a lot of British people are very selfish and only interested in themselves and getting what they want and that this has something to do with it. Almost all of the best measures to limit the impact of the virus depend on putting the interests of others first (distancing, not travelling, masks, even vaccination). A lot of Brits are not very good at putting others first.
Whilst I agree, do you think that’s an entirely British thing, or symptomatic of all Western democracies? After all, we see similar figures for Italy, France, Spain and the USA. There are many benefits to the way we live, but in a pandemic situation like this we just don’t have the required discipline. I think it's simply a case of behaviour for the most part, but we are not alone.
 
Nov 15, 2011
2,293
434
The problem in the UK isn't that we are a poor country it's that we have the greatest income inequality of any country in Europe.

eg The Resolution Foundation earlier this year :

"Typical households in the UK, France and Germany have remarkably similar incomes – around €34,000 in 2018. But those similarities hide big differences. The rich here have incomes 17% higher than their equivalents in France, a kind of inequality many can live with. But no one should be happy with the fact that our poorest households have to survive on incomes a staggering 20% lower than those across the Channel (£14,700 v £18,500)."

The ONS has shown how that inequality has risen every year over the last decade. We have one of the lowest state pensions in Europe eg in Germany you get 500 euros a week. Last week new legislation announced that the working poor will pay for inherited millionaires care home fees and 1.2 million families will be pushed into poverty with the £20 uplift cut.

Making the rich richer and keeping the poor in poverty is Government policy , and if you are in any doubt here's a quote from Michael Gove uncovered yesterday, yes it's old but you get the gist .

"We are at last experiencing a new empire: an empire where the happy south stamps over the cruel, dirty, toothless face of the northerner. At last Mrs Thatcher is saying I don’t give a fig for what half of the population say because the richer half will keep me in power."

In a society where from Thatcher through to Johnson selfishness is encouraged and the poor can't afford to eg miss work if they are pinged or have symptoms we shouldn't be surprised that yesterday we had 10 times more new Covid cases than Spain Italy or France.
 

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,761
153
Gairloch
The problem in the UK isn't that we are a poor country it's that we have the greatest income inequality of any country in Europe.

Here you go again. Another 'out there' statement. Please provide an authoratitive list/reference that proves your point. I've looked and can't find one that substantiates your claim based on latest available figures. If you have a reputable source with more up to date figures I'd be happy to accept it. (BTW, the Resolution one isn't valid as it compares UK, France and Germany, not the whole of Europe). Not sure why you would use that to back up your claim, but hey ...

As I say we have nothing to be proud of, but are you just getting overexcited about doing your country down again?
 
Nov 15, 2011
2,293
434
Here you go again. Another 'out there' statement. Please provide an authoratitive list/reference that proves your point. I've looked and can't find one that substantiates your claim based on latest available figures. If you have a reputable source with more up to date figures I'd be happy to accept it. (BTW, the Resolution one isn't valid as it compares UK, France and Germany, not the whole of Europe). Not sure why you would use that to back up your claim, but hey ...

As I say we have nothing to be proud of, but are you just getting overexcited about doing your country down again?
This is from Reuters :

"Britain has been labeled the “European capital of inequality” after a report found it is the most unequal country in the EU. As part of a progressive study, the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions (Eurofound) analyzed wages across the EU.
The report, titled Recent Developments in the Distribution of Wages in Europe, scrutinized data from 2004 to 2011 - the period before and after the onset of the Great Recession.
It found that the UK has the highest Gini coefficient of any EU member state - higher than that of the US. The coefficient is a widely used measure of income distribution within a nation, and is often used to calculate inequality.
According to analysts at Eurofound, Britain has a Gini coefficient of 0.404, while the US' is 0.4.
Portugal and Latvia followed the UK with Gini coefficients of 0.358 and 0.357, respectively. The average Gini index for the EU as a whole in 2011 was 0.346."

Inequality Briefing 2015 : "Briefing 61: Regional inequality in the UK is the worst in Western Europe
The gap between the richest and poorest region in the UK, in terms of disposable income, is the widest in the EU"

Tax Research UK "The UK is the most unequal country in Europe
Posted on May 19 2015 The EU has published a new report on living and working conditions in the EU member states. The focus is on wage and so income distributions."

London Economic : "The UK has nine out of the ten poorest regions in northern Europe, with suggestions that the rapid industrial decline brought about under Margaret Thatcher is chiefly responsible for creating pockets of poverty in one of the World’s richest economies."

There's loads of these, the ONS shows inequalities getting worse in each of the last 10 years, and Government policy in front of your very eyes is to step on the accelerator.

So me fighting for equality for British working people is doing my country down, whilst Frank is the patriot, tugging his forelock to a corrupt lying Government who are intentionally making him and most British people poorer and themselves fantastically richer. It's a cult, like Trumpism where no matter what Big Brother does to you, you believe in the dear leader.
 
Nov 15, 2011
2,293
434
I see you want some more recent evidence - 2018 OECD - "The UK state pension is the worst in the developed world, according to data from Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development."

And from 2021 University of Sheffield - "The UK has the worst regional inequality in the developed world, a leading University of Sheffield scientist said, with people in England’s North East worst-off overall"
 
May 16, 2016
4,109
440
This is from Reuters :

"Britain has been labeled the “European capital of inequality” after a report found it is the most unequal country in the EU. As part of a progressive study, the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions (Eurofound) analyzed wages across the EU.
The report, titled Recent Developments in the Distribution of Wages in Europe, scrutinized data from 2004 to 2011 - the period before and after the onset of the Great Recession.
It found that the UK has the highest Gini coefficient of any EU member state - higher than that of the US. The coefficient is a widely used measure of income distribution within a nation, and is often used to calculate inequality.
According to analysts at Eurofound, Britain has a Gini coefficient of 0.404, while the US' is 0.4.
Portugal and Latvia followed the UK with Gini coefficients of 0.358 and 0.357, respectively. The average Gini index for the EU as a whole in 2011 was 0.346."

Inequality Briefing 2015 : "Briefing 61: Regional inequality in the UK is the worst in Western Europe
The gap between the richest and poorest region in the UK, in terms of disposable income, is the widest in the EU"

Tax Research UK "The UK is the most unequal country in Europe
Posted on May 19 2015 The EU has published a new report on living and working conditions in the EU member states. The focus is on wage and so income distributions."

London Economic : "The UK has nine out of the ten poorest regions in northern Europe, with suggestions that the rapid industrial decline brought about under Margaret Thatcher is chiefly responsible for creating pockets of poverty in one of the World’s richest economies."

There's loads of these, the ONS shows inequalities getting worse in each of the last 10 years, and Government policy in front of your very eyes is to step on the accelerator.

So me fighting for equality for British working people is doing my country down, whilst Frank is the patriot, tugging his forelock to a corrupt lying Government who are intentionally making him and most British people poorer and themselves fantastically richer. It's a cult, like Trumpism where no matter what Big Brother does to you, you believe in the dear leader.
How exactly are you fighting this financial inequality? By your own admission, you must be the only poster here who accepts money from the wealthy to help them avoid paying tax and NI contributions.
 
Nov 15, 2011
2,293
434
How exactly are you fighting this financial inequality? By your own admission, you must be the only poster here who accepts money from the wealthy to help them avoid paying tax and NI contributions.
By not voting for a corrupt party whose policy is to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

I charge fees to people wealthy and not so wealthy to file tax returns in the most efficient ways within the law. If I didn't I wouldn't get paid and my kids would go hungry. It doesn't mean I don't think the system is wrong and would vote for any party that I think can change the tax code to a fairer system especially for the poorest. But while you keep voting for a lying conman who looks down on you and laughs as he picks your pocket there's not a lot more I can do.
 

The Doctor

Schuey Sponsor
NHS Cake Donor
T.O Support
Sep 15, 2003
6,894
791
Whilst I agree, do you think that’s an entirely British thing, or symptomatic of all Western democracies? After all, we see similar figures for Italy, France, Spain and the USA. There are many benefits to the way we live, but in a pandemic situation like this we just don’t have the required discipline. I think it's simply a case of behaviour for the most part, but we are not alone.
No, of course I don't think selfishness is an entirely British thing. In fact, I am sure that it isn't. But I do suspect that it is a characteristic that has been actively encouraged in the UK by those towards the right of the political spectrum because it serves their interests well and I suspect it is more prevalent here than in many other countries. But that is just my opinion. If you ask me to quote facts to support my opinion I can't.
 

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,761
153
Gairloch
No, of course I don't think selfishness is an entirely British thing. In fact, I am sure that it isn't. But I do suspect that it is a characteristic that has been actively encouraged in the UK by those towards the right of the political spectrum because it serves their interests well and I suspect it is more prevalent here than in many other countries. But that is just my opinion. If you ask me to quote facts to support my opinion I can't.
Doc - I think your point was well made and wasn't challenging it. I’m just not sure we’re that different from most Western democracies.
 

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,761
153
Gairloch
Thanks for the references though I'm not sure quoting 2004-2011 is all that relevant, especially when we were under a centre left administration for the majority of it, yes?

Your next 2 sources are from 2015 and the next has no reference point.

I also have to say it took you longer than usual to respond. I can just imagine you frantically scouring the Internet for sources to back up your hastily made assertion. Made me smile. ;)

But, when I search for poverty and inequality across Europe, I find every chart seems to put the UK somewhere in the middle or slightly worse including information from the World Bank and Eurostat to name a couple. Try for yourself.

Indeed this Wikipedia page pulls together data from the UN, World Bank and the Central Intelligence Agency. Our position is not great but we are not as you say 'the worst in Europe'.
Link

What I would say is that we do not fare well on 'regional inequality' - most likely due to the financial powerhouse of London City. And it is true that we are getting worse (like some of our peers) and have been for several decades (including both Tory and Labour administrations).

So me fighting for equality for British working people is doing my country down, whilst Frank is the patriot, tugging his forelock to a corrupt lying Government who are intentionally making him and most British people poorer and themselves fantastically richer. It's a cult, like Trumpism where no matter what Big Brother does to you, you believe in the dear leader.

As for this childish nonsense - you can do better surely... :rolleyes:. I know you're on a wind-up, but constantly trying to portray me as a Boris follower when I have been very clear where I stand just makes you look weak.
 
Nov 15, 2011
2,293
434
Thanks for the references though I'm not sure quoting 2004-2011 is all that relevant, especially when we were under a centre left administration for the majority of it, yes?

Your next 2 sources are from 2015 and the next has no reference point.

I also have to say it took you longer than usual to respond. I can just imagine you frantically scouring the Internet for sources to back up your hastily made assertion. Made me smile. ;)

But, when I search for poverty and inequality across Europe, I find every chart seems to put the UK somewhere in the middle or slightly worse including information from the World Bank and Eurostat to name a couple. Try for yourself.

Indeed this Wikipedia page pulls together data from the UN, World Bank and the Central Intelligence Agency. Our position is not great but we are not as you say 'the worst in Europe'.
Link

What I would say is that we do not fare well on 'regional inequality' - most likely due to the financial powerhouse of London City. And it is true that we are getting worse (like some of our peers) and have been for several decades (including both Tory and Labour administrations).



As for this childish nonsense - you can do better surely... :rolleyes:. I know you're on a wind-up, but constantly trying to portray me as a Boris follower when I have been very clear where I stand just makes you look weak.
"Thanks for the references though I'm not sure quoting 2004-2011 is all that relevant, especially when we were under a centre left administration for the majority of it, yes?" - The point being that according to the ONS inequality has got worse every year since 2011.

" I also have to say it took you longer than usual to respond. I can just imagine you frantically scouring the Internet for sources to back up your hastily made assertion. Made me smile. ;)" - I'm afraid Frank you're smiling at yourself, you are thinking everyone else is like you , and has desperately got to clutch at some straw to defend the indefensible. They're not. I have work to do, I googled those bits in 2 minutes and could have included many more, only those in denial don't admit we live in the most unequal country in Europe, and by design. We were 24th of 26th countries but overtook Portugal and Latvia earlier this year.

I'm glad you referred to the UN, here's their report on poverty in the UK from 2019 - "Poverty in the UK is 'systematic' and 'tragic', says UN special rapporteur. The UK's social safety net has been "deliberately removed and replaced with a harsh and uncaring ethos", a report commissioned by the UN has said. Special rapporteur on extreme poverty Philip Alston said "ideological" cuts to public services since 2010 have led to "tragic consequences". Hmmm

As for your support for Boris' Government, I agree you make your views on them very clear in every post you make.
 
Last edited:
Sep 6, 2006
12,137
762
Thanks for the references though I'm not sure quoting 2004-2011 is all that relevant, especially when we were under a centre left administration for the majority of it, yes?

Your next 2 sources are from 2015 and the next has no reference point.

I also have to say it took you longer than usual to respond. I can just imagine you frantically scouring the Internet for sources to back up your hastily made assertion. Made me smile. ;)

But, when I search for poverty and inequality across Europe, I find every chart seems to put the UK somewhere in the middle or slightly worse including information from the World Bank and Eurostat to name a couple. Try for yourself.

Indeed this Wikipedia page pulls together data from the UN, World Bank and the Central Intelligence Agency. Our position is not great but we are not as you say 'the worst in Europe'.
Link

What I would say is that we do not fare well on 'regional inequality' - most likely due to the financial powerhouse of London City. And it is true that we are getting worse (like some of our peers) and have been for several decades (including both Tory and Labour administrations).



As for this childish nonsense - you can do better surely... :rolleyes:. I know you're on a wind-up, but constantly trying to portray me as a Boris follower when I have been very clear where I stand just makes you look weak.
Thats not how I read your own stats Frank. We are up there with the most unequal countries in Europe but behind USA of course. Confirms what we already know. Despite being one of the richest countries in the world we have some of the poorest in Europe. Hardly surprising with the gig economy, zero hour contracts, ridiculous housing prices(not even shore if that is factored in). And when people are poor they go to work whether they have the virus or not.