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Coronavirus (merged threads)

Sep 2, 2008
1,792
23
Quinny":stiohiwg said:
Guiri Green":stiohiwg said:
Yet back in February.....

"Prime Minister Boris Johnson told MPs the plan aimed to be "cautious but irreversible" and at every stage decisions would be led by "data not dates".

"It requires four tests on vaccines, infection rates and new coronavirus variants to be met at each stage."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56158405

There may well have been a better way of controlling the spread of the new variant, but for anyone pinning your lives on June 21st......you shouldn't have. They've been clear all along that it might change.

Now, if more people had stuck to the guidelines, we may have have reduced the spread of the variant as the vaccine roll out reached a wider spread of people.

Personal responsibility.

The issue regarding the spread of the delta variant was that the indicators were there back in the first week of April when Pakistan and Bangladesh were both added to the red list due to the surge of cases which had spread from India ... but the Govt held off for some reason from imposing the same measure on India itself. That Boris was due to go to India at that same time to negotiate a trade deal was, I'm sure we can all agree, a complete coincidence.

I'm inclined to believe, as I'm sure you do Quinny, that this was a major factor in why he delayed putting India on the naughty list.

For me, it's an example of the fine balancing act that the Govt have to maintain between the economy and the health of the Country. Govts have to make difficult decisions and there will always be people that have a different idea on what decision(s) should be made.

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. I'm pretty sure that all those people that flew in from India knew there was an issue in the Country and knew the Country was on a number of red lists and yet it would appear that they just carried on regardless. The World has been consumed by this pandemic and there is a shed load of information out there on what we should and shouldn't do so there really is no excuse.

So when I talk about taking personal responsibility, I am talking about those people.

I suggest that the people blaming the Govt probably fall into the bracket of people that blame someone else when things go wrong.
 
Dec 27, 2004
764
34
Bidford on Avon
Pottypilgrim":2d0wyo5e said:
Quinny":2d0wyo5e said:
Guiri Green":2d0wyo5e said:
Yet back in February.....

"Prime Minister Boris Johnson told MPs the plan aimed to be "cautious but irreversible" and at every stage decisions would be led by "data not dates".

"It requires four tests on vaccines, infection rates and new coronavirus variants to be met at each stage."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56158405

There may well have been a better way of controlling the spread of the new variant, but for anyone pinning your lives on June 21st......you shouldn't have. They've been clear all along that it might change.

Now, if more people had stuck to the guidelines, we may have have reduced the spread of the variant as the vaccine roll out reached a wider spread of people.

Personal responsibility.

The issue regarding the spread of the delta variant was that the indicators were there back in the first week of April when Pakistan and Bangladesh were both added to the red list due to the surge of cases which had spread from India ... but the Govt held off for some reason from imposing the same measure on India itself. That Boris was due to go to India at that same time to negotiate a trade deal was, I'm sure we can all agree, a complete coincidence.

I'm inclined to believe, as I'm sure you do Quinny, that this was a major factor in why he delayed putting India on the naughty list.

For me, it's an example of the fine balancing act that the Govt have to maintain between the economy and the health of the Country. Govts have to make difficult decisions and there will always be people that have a different idea on what decision(s) should be made.

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. I'm pretty sure that all those people that flew in from India knew there was an issue in the Country and knew the Country was on a number of red lists and yet it would appear that they just carried on regardless. The World has been consumed by this pandemic and there is a shed load of information out there on what we should and shouldn't do so there really is no excuse.

So when I talk about taking personal responsibility, I am talking about those people.

I suggest that the people blaming the Govt probably fall into the bracket of people that blame someone else when things go wrong.


Sorry PP - completely wrong.

I don't give a stuff about rosettes - I do about competence.

Larry the cat could do a better job - or anyone else in the cabinet.

His balancing act, defies common sense and science and actually does MORE damage to the economy.

That's why our economy has been devastated compared to similar others.

Not fit to wear the shirt.

Never thought I'd say it .... bring back Theresa May.

At least she was competent and "got things done" :hitfan:
 
Jul 15, 2006
3,896
57
Kenton, Devon
Martyn":1m7rswkn said:
Why 6.00 pm, tonight, do it now.

Should been announced first thing this morning.

Well, a lot of reasons why at 6pm and not first thing this morning. Firstly, well it's hardly a secret for a start, so if any business, well anyone TBF, is caught "unawares" by the announcement this evening - more fool them. Secondly, such a delay rightly should come from the PM and he's currently in Brussels this morning for the NATO summit: that was in the diary ... as was the 6pm press conference. Thirdly, it's a disappointing development for many, but it isn't as if we're facing a tightening on restrictions (at least not yet). It's just more of the same for another 4 weeks and for the vast majority of people life is more or less "back to normal" to a certain extent (as least it seems like that, given the amount of traffic coming through here in Kenton on their way to Dawlish and Teignmouth), so I don't see any real need for the PM to "drop everything". And, finally, if he had announced it any sooner, say over the weekend, Boris would have faced a back-last from those on the benches who have gotten annoyed over announcements being made in public but Parliament not getting the chance to have their say until 24/48 hours later. A 6pm announcement, plus a 9pm Commons Statement (and debate) would placate those grumblers.

I'm as big a critic of Boris and the Govt as many here, but I don't see a problem with any of this. Like I said, we all know what's going to be said...
 
Sep 2, 2008
1,792
23
Quinny":205c0n7b said:
Martyn":205c0n7b said:
Why 6.00 pm, tonight, do it now.

Should been announced first thing this morning.

Well, a lot of reasons why at 6pm and not first thing this morning. Firstly, well it's hardly a secret for a start, so if any business, well anyone TBF, is caught "unawares" by the announcement this evening - more fool them. Secondly, such a delay rightly should come from the PM and he's currently in Brussels this morning for the NATO summit: that was in the diary ... as was the 6pm press conference. Thirdly, it's a disappointing development for many, but it isn't as if we're facing a tightening on restrictions (at least not yet). It's just more of the same for another 4 weeks and for the vast majority of people life is more or less "back to normal" to a certain extent (as least it seems like that, given the amount of traffic coming through here in Kenton on their way to Dawlish and Teignmouth), so I don't see any real need for the PM to "drop everything". And, finally, if he had announced it any sooner, say over the weekend, Boris would have faced a back-last from those on the benches who have gotten annoyed over announcements being made in public but Parliament not getting the chance to have their say until 24/48 hours later. A 6pm announcement, plus a 9pm Commons Statement (and debate) would placate those grumblers.

I'm as big a critic of Boris and the Govt as many here, but I don't see a problem with any of this. Like I said, we all know what's going to be said...

Agreed.

Like all those people that flew in from India knew they were coming from a very high risk area and yet....
 
Jul 15, 2006
3,896
57
Kenton, Devon
Pottypilgrim":3bmyl5bc said:
Quinny":3bmyl5bc said:
That Boris was due to go to India at that same time to negotiate a trade deal was, I'm sure we can all agree, a complete coincidence.

I'm inclined to believe, as I'm sure you do Quinny, that this was a major factor in why he delayed putting India on the naughty list.

For me, it's an example of the fine balancing act that the Govt have to maintain between the economy and the health of the Country. Govts have to make difficult decisions and there will always be people that have a different idea on what decision(s) should be made.

I do partially agree with you, PP - the Govt does have a difficult balancing act between the economy and the health of the nation. But the India trip wasn't to sign any agreement: just working out the details for some of the trickier areas. Shutting down flights from India at the same time as their neighbours and delaying that aspect of the talks would have made little or no difference to when that trade deal is finally signed, nor when we'd start to realise any of the benefits of the deal (which would be many years down the line). No, delaying adding India to the red list just so Boris wouldn't be subject to spending a fortnight in a quarantine hotel was a selfish and reckless act - even more so as Boris ended up postponing the visit anyway!

People need to take more responsibility for their actions. I'm pretty sure that all those people that flew in from India knew there was an issue in the Country and knew the Country was on a number of red lists and yet it would appear that they just carried on regardless. The World has been consumed by this pandemic and there is a shed load of information out there on what we should and shouldn't do so there really is no excuse.

So when I talk about taking personal responsibility, I am talking about those people.

I suggest that the people blaming the Govt probably fall into the bracket of people that blame someone else when things go wrong.

Yes, I agree partially agree with the personal responsibility bit, and I'm sure many had genuine reasons to be there - and travel back - but then if the Govt was so keen to protect our borders why give a week's notice with their intention to add India to the red list other than to give people time to get back? Personally I'd be quite happy for the Govt to give less than 12hours notice to shut down borders - basically anyone in air at the time of the announcement will be allowed in without a need to quarantine, everyone else can lump it.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,902
307
"I suggest that the people blaming the Govt probably fall into the bracket of people that blame someone else when things go wrong." says Potty whist blaming someone else (those arriving from India) when things have gone wrong. I mean when he's typing a post doesn't he ever think, hang on this is just ridiculous, I'm literally doing what I am pompously criticising other people of doing. It's truly double take stuff.

Of course trying to get a meeting with Modi to desperately try and obtain any Brexit bonus with a country the other side of the world that by the Government's own figures would add a tiny boost to the economy compared with importing a deadly variant that has put the economy and thousands of lives at risk is a nonsense. But still it's a glass of kool aid the believers will drink heartily.

And ignoring the fact that lecturing people to take personal responsibility whilst ignoring the fact that the person ultimately responsible has never taken personal responsibility for anything in his life, is well, nothing to see here, move on.
 

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,610
64
Gairloch
Some wildly speculative comment on this thread lately. I completely agree there is a balancing act and have stated this on many occasions. For everyone who wants to extend restrictions there is probably an equal number who don't and the Government has a responsibility to maintain the health and wealth of the nation - primarily because, and simply put, health will suffer without wealth.

In terms of personal responsibility. I couldn't agree more. A major problem is simply 'people' and the liberal attitudes we hold dear in this country. I've previously cited the laissez-faire conversation I heard between two young women in the street, one who was positive. Then just this week my neighbour recited a tale from a little while back where someone he knew and was chatting to in the street suddenly revealed he was positive. Shocked, he then asked about the chap's wife and daughter, he nonchalantly said that she was at work and the little one had gone to school. Put that together with stories of house parties and illegally organised gatherings and it is clear our moral compass is perhaps different to many other countries.

As for following scientific evidence, I firmly belive they pretty much did up until September last. The transcripts from the SAGE meeting before Cheltenham would tend to demonstrate that, as would the comments from Vallance about herd immunity back then. Something did change in September though and I suspect that was an unwillingness to further damage the economy with a second lockdown - a policy of course which was self-defeating in the end and costly for many poor souls. They seem to be back in line now though with today's revelation.

And finally, dear old tmkf keeps trotting out the 'most deaths in Europe' stat as it's the only one that helps him bash Britain (that said he might not be to even use that soon). It's like saying the USA is much worse than North Macedonia because they have more deaths in their country. For those more scientifically minded there are excellent resources on this topic. Figures for excess deaths with good analysis can be found here with links to EuroMOMO for provenance.

It is very interesting to see that the UK has in all likelihood overdone it's reporting of Covid related deaths, whereas many other countries are not reporting anywhere near enough. Check out Russia, South Africa, Egypt and Iran for example - massive discrepancies. We have seen this revising of data in Peru recently of course and I would expect more to come. In Europe we see France and Germany probably over reporting like the UK, Spain inline and Italy and Poland under-reporting (this assumes the excess is related to Covid and not consequential effects in areas such as cancer and heart disease but the principle is consistent).

None of this is to defend the Government per se - I think serious mistakes were made in the Autumn last year and again the lack of action over India recently was a mistale. But at the same time you have to present honest data or anecdotes if you're going to debate, something one or two on here seem incapable of doing.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,902
307
For the scientifically minded comparing USA with North Macedonia is not the same as comparing the UK with Germany or France both of which have bigger/similar populations but have tens of thousands less deaths. That's not being anti British that's just counting.

And it's the very fact that I'm pro British that I'm ashamed of the clown circus running the country. IMHO it's the people trying to excuse these liars and charlatans that are anti British.
 

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,610
64
Gairloch
themightykeithfear":32lmhiph said:
For the scientifically minded comparing USA with North Macedonia is not the same as comparing the UK with Germany or France both of which have bigger/similar populations but have tens of thousands less deaths. That's not being anti British that's just counting.

And it's the very fact that I'm pro British that I'm ashamed of the clown circus running the country. IMHO it's the people trying to excuse these liars and charlatans that are anti British.

:lol:
 
May 16, 2016
3,883
227
themightykeithfear":3bayzycr said:
For the scientifically minded comparing USA with North Macedonia is not the same as comparing the UK with Germany or France both of which have bigger/similar populations but have tens of thousands less deaths. That's not being anti British that's just counting.

And it's the very fact that I'm pro British that I'm ashamed of the clown circus running the country. IMHO it's the people trying to excuse these liars and charlatans that are anti British.

Says the person applying for an Irish Passport.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,902
307
Wanting to have the freedoms that brexit took away and enjoy my retirement isn’t being anti British. It was the people who voted brexit and took the freedoms away from British people who were anti British.
 
May 16, 2016
3,883
227
themightykeithfear":1zrcmqmm said:
Wanting to have the freedoms that brexit took away and enjoy my retirement isn’t being anti British. It was the people who voted brexit and took the freedoms away from British people who were anti British.


.....and racists.
 
Sep 2, 2008
1,792
23
Guiri Green":2hw7hjmo said:
themightykeithfear":2hw7hjmo said:
Wanting to have the freedoms that brexit took away and enjoy my retirement isn’t being anti British. It was the people who voted brexit and took the freedoms away from British people who were anti British.


.....and racists.

So there are almost 17.5 million anti British people in Britain :funny: :lol:

Good to see that you're still talking complete nonsense. :facepalm: Actually, it's not good really...please folks, try not to quote him if you can

You really still don't have a clue. I can only imagine the amount of bilge you've been spewing out lately.