Camara made available for transfer | Page 11 | PASOTI
  • Welcome to PASOTI. Sponsored by Lang & Potter

Camara made available for transfer

fawlty

♣️ PASALB Member
Feb 1, 2012
286
161
As I understand it, Pan’s agent has terminated the contract negotiations (with or without Pan’s agreement) which is part of his/her’s job to get the best deal for the player in his short playing career. Failure to get promotion has probably had a significant impact on the stance of the agent as to how strong a case could be made for a better deal than was being offered by Argyle. The agent may think that there is a club out there ready to pay more than Argyle has offered and has gambled on this. He/she may be wrong.
It is clear to me that Argyle have done the right thing and stated that if Pan doesn’t want to stay for the immediate future then we will replace him with someone they believe fills the gap left behind in our system of play. Making him available now gives Argyle the chance to take the best offer from clubs who have offloaded players to find the likes of Pan.
I did like Pan’s energy and enthusiasm and I wish him well wherever he finds his future.
COYGs.
 
Jul 28, 2020
967
959
What went wrong is we had unrealistic expectations due to what actual budget we had.

We signed players who we could afford. Like Ladapo. Hoping they would turn into something like he did. The problem was your can’t keep polishing a rock and expect every time for it to sparkle. And In our case that season, combined with a negative mindset of our manager, they showed us what type of rocks they were.

Now we expect to sign better players than we have, when we can’t even afford to hold onto our best players.

Im afraid it’s called unrealistic expectations that drive us to make up scenarios not based on the financial realities of where Argyle are. It’s not defeatist. It’s not negative. It’s just unfortunately the reality of our situation.
I get your point that finances are important and that the more you spend the better the quality of the player you can get. But the ironic thing is that many of the best signings at Argyle have arrived unheralded, and on free transfers ( or else for little money).

I think there is an untold story about pre-season 2018-2019, and I wonder whether James Brent or Derek Adams will ever tell it? On the one hand I find it difficult to believe that ASB and Tafari Moore weren’t scouted prior to signing, but on the other hand I find it impossible to believe that they were.

I saw the two players in pre-season games at Tavistock and Yeovil.......and on the evidence of those games, I wouldn’t have signed either of them.....
 
  • Like
Reactions: MGM

PL2 3DQ

Site Owner
🏆 Callum Wright 23/24
Jade Berrow 23/24
✨Pasoti Donor✨
🌟Sparksy Mural🌟
Oct 31, 2010
24,130
10,005
Camara's agent also represents Brendan Galloway and Callum Burton, I seem to remember Galloway took a while to sign a new contract after his injury.
 
Mar 16, 2009
1,082
652
London
Because he doesn't want to sign a new contract clearly therefore we need to get a decent fee for him.

How much would promotion to the championship be worth to us as a club?

If that‘s what‘s at stake depending on whether we keep our best players or not, a ’decent fee’ for arguably our best outfield player should be a multiple of that.

Otherwise, from a business perspective, there’s no value and it‘s a bad deal for Argyle.

We’d be far better of keeping him for the remainder of his contract. As a calculated risk that would offer better value.
 
Jan 27, 2006
625
854
How much would promotion to the championship be worth to us as a club?

If that‘s what‘s at stake depending on whether we keep our best players or not, a ’decent fee’ for arguably our best outfield player should be a multiple of that.

Otherwise, from a business perspective, there’s no value and it‘s a bad deal for Argyle.

We’d be far better of keeping him for the remainder of his contract. As a calculated risk that would offer better value.
That’s the big unknown isn’t it and the test to see if this version of Argyle is as impressive as it has appeared up to now.

I believe Pan and Coops are the two players that make the most difference between us being top half and top six. So what number do Argyle put on that? Entirely subjective on my part but I’d rather keep Pan for a year and lose him for nothing if we didn‘t get an offer in the region of £2m.

If the money isn’t substantial enough to make a difference to Argyle then I fail to see the value in doing a deal at this time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Emu and Justin

SMG

Oct 22, 2021
921
909
Mayor 3 goals - answer get rid no end product?
Camara 4 goals - what a player, runs here there and everywhere, no end product.
Mayor makes passes to others to make assists.
Who would I keep? Mayor all day long.
More to playing than being energetic.

Mayor will have the ball in space even less now if we don't replace Camara with a very good box to box midfielder.

There's a reason there's a queue of clubs interested in Camara and that Danny Mayor has never really been able to make a impact above the 3rd tier. I like Mayor but Camara allow's him to be a luxury player for us.

Anyway, I don't think this situation is over yet. Just because he's available doesn't mean we should take any low ball offer. Unless it's £1m+ I would not let him go. He's not the type of player/person to hold back and see out his contract in a hissy fit. It's not something I would recommend for many players at Argyle but he's so important to us. You can say, oh we got him from Crawley and developed him and we can find another. I would say that it's very unlikely we could find a midfielder anything like Pan and even if we did find a rough diamond we could afford then they won't probably be a starter for atleast 12 months.
 
Jun 18, 2005
2,540
2,086
born St. Columb, Cornwall
How much would promotion to the championship be worth to us as a club?

If that‘s what‘s at stake depending on whether we keep our best players or not, a ’decent fee’ for arguably our best outfield player should be a multiple of that.

Otherwise, from a business perspective, there’s no value and it‘s a bad deal for Argyle.

We’d be far better of keeping him for the remainder of his contract. As a calculated risk that would offer better value.
Thanks for posting a lot on this thread, Justin. I don't agree with some of your viewpoints but your arguments are definitely food for thought as they offer a different vision than where the club's current thinking is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deacster and Justin
Mar 16, 2009
1,082
652
London
Thanks for posting a lot on this thread, Justin. I don't agree with some of your viewpoints but your arguments are definitely food for thought as they offer a different vision than where the club's current thinking is.

That's nice of you to say Saxman, thank you. It'd appear my views are in the minority (as is often the case!) but hopefully in some small way they contribute to a meaningful debate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deacster

IJN

Site Owner
Nov 29, 2012
9,165
22,675
That's what annoys me about our detractors who say 'You only allow people that follow your agenda' etc.

There are many posters I don't agree with but they abide by our rules and can post freely.

It would be very boring is all of us agreed wouldn't it?

Justin often posts stuff I don't agree with but he's always respectful with it. Then there's people like BG who I often agree with, bit is quite disrespectful, so it shows how difficult it can be to moderate this site.

We've recently been accused of not taking into account women, despite having loads of women on here who enjoy the site immensely and of course about eight years of sponsoring ladies football in the direct manner we do.

It's a strange old world sometime and you can see why football clubs themselves veer away from creating their own forums. The moderation of them takes so much work and a whole load of headaches.

Our court case is ongoing and now costing this site money. :mad:
 

The Doctor

🏆 Callum Wright 23/24
✨Pasoti Donor✨
Sep 15, 2003
8,892
4,296
Plymouth
andapoet.blog
The whole data analytics/'moneyball' approach is based on buying players who are undervalued (i.e. before their talent or potential talent is obvious to everyone else), developing their talent further, and then selling them when they are overvalued (i.e. when everyone else has noticed how talented they are and they have become desirable).

In this approach you don't have to get every deal perfectly correct (i.e. OPTIMISE the profit margin by buying and selling at EXACTLY the right time) you just have to keep doing deals of this kind over and over again and gradually with players of increasing value. In this way the overall quality of the squad grows but without the need to inject more and more capital (which obviously leads to ever increasing debts).

I think it is absolutely essential that Argyle sell players like Camara for good profit and I think it is something that fans will need to get used to and, indeed, embrace to some extent. But it will take a bit of getting used to - after all, when was the last time we sold a player for a profit? The difficult bit is when a player is sold to a rival club (which could well happen in Pan's case). That feels like a backward step but it isn't if we are getting the financial part right, including buying the next player(s) to bring through in the same way.

There's a fascinating description of this in James Tippett's book 'The Expected Goals Philosophy' which sets out how Brentford use this approach. The book includes a table that shows a long list of their signings over a few years with their in and out transfer fees - they made a staggering amount of money this way and it is the basis on which they became a competitive Championship club and have now made it into the Premier League (it'll be harder for them to work their system at that level of course). Players like Neal Maupay and Scott Hogan are two examples of players they bought for FAR less than they sold.

Camara's financial value to Argyle will drop off VERY quickly once next season starts and so it is absolutely the right thing to do to try to stimulate interest in him from as many clubs as possible to generate competition between clubs to sign him. Now that interested clubs know that he is likely going to go SOMEWHERE this summer the pressure is on them to make THEIR move for him.
 

The Doctor

🏆 Callum Wright 23/24
✨Pasoti Donor✨
Sep 15, 2003
8,892
4,296
Plymouth
andapoet.blog
How much would promotion to the championship be worth to us as a club?

If that‘s what‘s at stake depending on whether we keep our best players or not, a ’decent fee’ for arguably our best outfield player should be a multiple of that.

Otherwise, from a business perspective, there’s no value and it‘s a bad deal for Argyle.

We’d be far better of keeping him for the remainder of his contract. As a calculated risk that would offer better value.
But surely it all depends on what happens to the money (profit) that selling Camara makes the club. If it means that the club can buy another player of the same or better quality, bring them through and then sell them for an even bigger profit then surely it's better to sell. What about if the profit from Camara enables the club to sign two or three players of Camara's quality? I'd rather have a new version of Camara (or some other player in a different position who makes a similar impact) but with 2-3 years on their contract and perhaps less wages. I'd certainly rather have TWO players like (of similar standard/impact to) Camara added to the squad.

I understand your argument but it seems to ignore the fact that it is possible to sell Camara and improve the overall quality and value of the squad and assumes that if Camara is sold the squad gets worse. My instinct is that the former outcome is more likely than the latter at the moment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Railway sleeper

vibratingspider

Joined 1996
Jam First
Oct 1, 2006
1,811
786
Personally I'd be gutted to lose Pan. I think a lot of people focus on the fact that, because he's a somewhat imposing attacking midfilder, they forget how many times he helps out our defence, or runs back to pick up a loose pass or makes a solid tackle. Yes, he's great going forward but he's also a fantastic defensive player.

It feels like a gamble for Argyle to suddenly put him in the shop window. I'm hopeful that Argyle have a considerable fee in mind for his sale that, if it's not met, we end up hanging onto him. Whether that would suit anyone I've no idea, but I'm definitely left cursing Pan's greedy agent at this point.
 
Sep 6, 2006
16,422
3,962
That’s the big unknown isn’t it and the test to see if this version of Argyle is as impressive as it has appeared up to now.

I believe Pan and Coops are the two players that make the most difference between us being top half and top six. So what number do Argyle put on that? Entirely subjective on my part but I’d rather keep Pan for a year and lose him for nothing if we didn‘t get an offer in the region of £2m.

If the money isn’t substantial enough to make a difference to Argyle then I fail to see the value in doing a deal at this time.
So you dont think £1m would 'make a difference'?
 

Biggs

Administrator
Staff member
✅ Evergreen
🎫 S.T. Donor 🎫
✨Pasoti Donor✨
🌟Sparksy Mural🌟
Feb 14, 2010
12,416
5,748
Plymouth/London
Personally I'd be gutted to lose Pan. I think a lot of people focus on the fact that, because he's a somewhat imposing attacking midfilder, they forget how many times he helps out our defence, or runs back to pick up a loose pass or makes a solid tackle. Yes, he's great going forward but he's also a fantastic defensive player.

Totally agree, but other players like that do exist. In the same way that (a slightly more raw) Pan himself was available.

Everything about this decision points to the club knowing exactly what they're doing. Getting a big profit on a player where previously we wouldn't, being confident we have a list of replacements where previously we wouldn't, and being confident enough to be the ones cutting loose and not the other way around.