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Brief Synopsis Fleetwood

Daz

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l think that’s a a bit unfair to be honest regarding expectations. I’ve had a season ticket for mainly years watching league one and league two football. I’ve seen countless players at this level. Live. So you get a rough idea what they can and can’t do.

l don’t know what you think l might be asking of these players but l just look at simple tasks like work rate, effort, simple passing, organised if your a defender or hold up play if your a forward and the ability to cross a ball consistently if your a wide player. Nothing too elaborate. Then you see if within that team unit where you think they might finish. Is my expectations of them too high by saying l thought we’d finish around 10th this season? l thought l was being realistic to be honest. I take on board your points but l’ve now seen many of this side like Edwards and Grant for over 18 months in their roles/positions and so thats how l base my opinion. Not on just tonight. l think that’s fair.

We play a wing back system and to be honest it’s a whole new ball game to the level of player you need in a 4ATB system. We need Edwards and Grant to be so good defensively covering the spaces. Yet more importantly they need to be our creative outlet in wide areas. Thats a hell of an ask for a league one player. Especially, two converted midfielders.

The knock on effect is when they are caught out of position the defender behind then is relied upon to fill the space and cover. This is often why one direct ball and the opposition are in. Of course then that defender often gets the blame but they are often left to deal with dangerous one on one situations with quick, skilled opponents.

I’d just like us to have a plan B. l don’t understand the obsession with 3-5-2 and no alternative. Why can’t it be a 3-4-3 to help give the team more natural width.

Personally, l dont see why we can’t have a 4-3-3 with Mayor out wide left and Garrick wide right. Ennis down the middle. Edwards in CM with Camara (with both their work rates l feel our midfield would be transformed) and Randell or Houghton behind. l think we would play better as the natural width is there in a 4-3-3. Would be easier to fit say a C Grant at LB. He wouldn’t have to beat anyone but with Mayor he could then find the space by overlapping. Then you have his ability to cross a ball but with Mayor ahead of him to run at opposition full backs. Just like Lincoln’s no11 did on Saturday.

Like you said, it’s so difficult to come by some expert wing backs (especially for league one). My point then is, is it really sensible to be playing a wing back system in league one especially as in this system they are your only natural width? Do we even have the budget for these type of players.

l don’t think these are unfair points to raise. It’s better than seeing people having a go at coaches who have only been here for a few weeks! Especially when the mistakes we seen last night were ones repeated in this system for the past 3 years.

I can't recall all of your posts but I seem to recall you yearning for us to sign pacey wing back type players in the mould of TAA/Robertson. I understand what you are saying and yes, ideally we would have natural wing backs over Grant/Edwards (although I disagree that these two should be in midfield).

But I don't think it's such an enormous issue week in week out. Granted, in some weeks it may highlight as an issue, perhaps in the last couple of games, but on the overall across the whole season, I don't think it's been some enormous issue week in week out.
 

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I can’t see a foul on Cooper, I just think he, and others, needed to be stronger. It was offside but regardless, a really soft goal to concede.
The other twitter post with the angle from behind the goal gives a clearer impression of 2 fouls on Cooper. Even if you don't think he was fouled, it was offside. The goal shouldn't have stood and we should have 3 points on that basis.

That shouldn't have glossed over the weaknesses but it would have done on here. People would be saying 'job done', 'good away battling performance'. Except MGM, who is consistent in his criticism, to be fair.

Schumacher hasn't tried to hide from the problems.
 

MGM

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I can't recall all of your posts but I seem to recall you yearning for us to sign pacey wing back type players in the mould of TAA/Robertson. I understand what you are saying and yes, ideally we would have natural wing backs over Grant/Edwards (although I disagree that these two should be in midfield).

But I don't think it's such an enormous issue week in week out. Granted, in some weeks it may highlight as an issue, perhaps in the last couple of games, but on the overall across the whole season, I don't think it's been some enormous issue week in week out.

Sorry, l have never mention Robertson or TAA as a comparison.

Although your right l have mentioned pace. I have also mentioned you need an engine to continually get up and down the pitch.

l also mentioned players former Argyle players like Mark Patterson or Gary Poole who were good with the ball at their feet. Comfortable in wide areas. And most importantly could consistently cross well. They weren’t the greatest defenders but were great attacking full backs who would of been more suited to the RWB role than what Edwards is.

If it’s not an issue then l don’t get the last 12 months of these long channel balls down the pitch. That’s how we break teams down. Garrick or Hardie over the top. When we try to build up with width we are too slow. By the time it gets to Edwards or Grant the opposition have got behind the ball. They don’t have the skill to beat a player so the ball goes back again.

But that’s just an opinion. I accept you may see it differently and have valid case too.
 

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I think it does but is it then offside? Randell doesn't play it deliberately to the Fleetwood, so it could be argued it's an attempted block...in which case I think he's still off. Pots and pans and all that, I suppose.
I guess it’s to put pressure on the opposition and allowing us to have a much higher line.

The problem is when we are up against pace and they counter us in behind the WB’s.
 

vibratingspider

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Cooper misses his punch. The lad is offside but he hasn't touched the ball and is not in the eye line of Cooper. Seen them given and not.
Blimey, this is a first. I agree with you BG!

I don't think the guy on the line gets anything on it. Whether he's interfering with play or not, I don't know. Cooper definitely misses his punch and seems to almost jump away from the ball under the mass of players bumping into him. For me, he should be more decisive and make a stronger effort at the ball. He does lack physicality in these areas, but equally I think the defence should offer him more protection. That's just not happening lately, especially with crosses.

I also can't help but feel that the goal might not have stood if it had been within the first 80 minutes. I think, given the passion and drama and importance of the goal as a spectacle, I have a feeling the linesman bottled it as he didn't want to take responsibility and suffer the consequences of getting it wrong.
 
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Sorry, l have never mention Robertson or TAA as a comparison.

Although your right l have mentioned pace. I have also mentioned you need an engine to continually get up and down the pitch.

l also mentioned players former Argyle players like Mark Patterson or Gary Poole who were good with the ball at their feet. Comfortable in wide areas. And most importantly could consistently cross well. They weren’t the greatest defenders but were great attacking full backs who would of been more suited to the RWB role than what Edwards is.

If it’s not an issue then l don’t get the last 12 months of these long channel balls down the pitch. That’s how we break teams down. Garrick or Hardie over the top. When we try to build up with width we are too slow. By the time it gets to Edwards or Grant the opposition have got behind the ball. They don’t have the skill to beat a player so the ball goes back again.

But that’s just an opinion. I accept you may see it differently and have valid case too.

Hm, well I seem to recall you naming them before. Even if you haven't, the description of what you want out of that position matches a wingback in the mould of TAA/Robertson. If you only want players who are good with the ball at feet, and can cross, Conor Grant isn't a bad wing-back by that definition. He contributes a number of goals and assists over a season. I agree that Edwards is maybe less of a typical wing-back, although I disagree that he should be in midfield. I don't think he makes a top end central midfielder at L1 levell as I think I mentioned before. Nonetheless, Edwards also contributes some assists and goals over a season.

My impression however was that you wanted the perfect wing-back, someone who has bundles of pace, energy, someone who can defend and when wide also has a good cross. It's almost asking for perfection and I doubt many teams have two full-backs in the mould of say TAA/Robertson. But I understand that Grant and Edwards and not typical wing-backs. As mentioned elsewhere, it might be worth giving Law and extended run in the team, as he appears to be more in the mould of a LWB. However, he looks suspect defensively. Again, very difficult to find a complete wing-back who executes that role perfectly.
 

MGM

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Hm, well I seem to recall you naming them before. Even if you haven't, the description of what you want out of that position matches a wingback in the mould of TAA/Robertson. If you only want players who are good with the ball at feet, and can cross, Conor Grant isn't a bad wing-back by that definition. He contributes a number of goals and assists over a season. I agree that Edwards is maybe less of a typical wing-back, although I disagree that he should be in midfield. I don't think he makes a top end central midfielder at L1 levell as I think I mentioned before. Nonetheless, Edwards also contributes some assists and goals over a season.

My impression however was that you wanted the perfect wing-back, someone who has bundles of pace, energy, someone who can defend and when wide also has a good cross. It's almost asking for perfection and I doubt many teams have two full-backs in the mould of say TAA/Robertson. But I understand that Grant and Edwards and not typical wing-backs. As mentioned elsewhere, it might be worth giving Law and extended run in the team, as he appears to be more in the mould of a LWB. However, he looks suspect defensively. Again, very difficult to find a complete wing-back who executes that role perfectly.

TBH, you said it all if your last sentence. It’s very difficult to find a complete wing back.

Yet if this is our only outlet in terms of width and we are finding it difficult to find a player who suits that role, then why make if difficult for ourselves by playing this system?

l don’t want the perfect person. At league one level it’s impossible. I would accept someone tbh, who has flaws defensively, if it meant it could provide this team attacking width and give the two forwards service without the constant need for a Mayor or a Broom to end up being that guy.

For example, Garrick’s LWB performance against Charlton. His pace caused them issues. He isn’t an ideal LWB but he was a threat. I don’t feel the opposition see Edwards or Grant as a threat in behind them.

Agree about Law. I’m not sure why he hasn’t got more of a run out.
 
Aug 15, 2015
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TBH, you said it all if your last sentence. It’s very difficult to find a complete wing back.

Yet if this is our only outlet in terms of width and we are finding it difficult to find a player who suits that role, then why make if difficult for ourselves by playing this system?

l don’t want the perfect person. At league one level it’s impossible. I would accept someone tbh, who has flaws defensively, if it meant it could provide this team attacking width and give the two forwards service without the constant need for a Mayor or a Broom to end up being that guy.

For example, Garrick’s LWB performance against Charlton. His pace caused them issues. He isn’t an ideal LWB but he was a threat. I don’t feel the opposition see Edwards or Grant as a threat in behind them.

Agree about Law. I’m not sure why he hasn’t got more of a run out.

Touching on the discussion and your initial comment in this thread, I've just watched the goals back from the Fleetwood game and fail to see how the fault could be pinned to our wing-backs. The first two goals are the responsibility of the centre backs. The video is not clear but it looks like Scarr. He lost out his individual battle to their forward player in the 1st goal and got caught out, and for the 2nd, he let the striker run off of him. I think Randell was marking the player who put the cross in for the 2nd. I can't make out the 3rd goal, but again that's nothing to do with full/wing-back issues. Just thought I would raise that as I didn't watch the game. I struggle to see how blame can be attributed to the wing-backs from the Fleetwood game.
 
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Scarr responsible for the first goal really, how. He never even reached Scarr. The second was down to Wilson it was his man and he lost out , Scarr was responsible for the space in front of him. Basic defending principles..
 

MGM

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Touching on the discussion and your initial comment in this thread, I've just watched the goals back from the Fleetwood game and fail to see how the fault could be pinned to our wing-backs. The first two goals are the responsibility of the centre backs. The video is not clear but it looks like Scarr. He lost out his individual battle to their forward player in the 1st goal and got caught out, and for the 2nd, he let the striker run off of him. I think Randell was marking the player who put the cross in for the 2nd. I can't make out the 3rd goal, but again that's nothing to do with full/wing-back issues. Just thought I would raise that as I didn't watch the game. I struggle to see how blame can be attributed to the wing-backs from the Fleetwood game.

To be honest, the only thing l said in the initial thread about defending was this….

“Their 3rd corner is atrocious defending. Why in earth you letting the ball bounce in the box l don’t know? Especially inside your six yard box. Cooper isn’t physical enough in that situation (whether he is fouled or not) and everyone else is just watching. It’s beyond school boy level of defending.”

No mention of wing backs.

l did say this

“It just feels like there are still more questions than answers at this minute regarding the defensive and offensive width that we play with and the opposition pick us apart with. Until this area of the pitch is sorted we will continue to be disjointed.”

But no mention of blaming any of the goals. Their second goal they get down the sides of us and we don’t mark up properly. Whether it’s the wing back‘s fault or centre half for not stopping that cross l will leave open for debate.

However, no mention specifically blaming wing backs, just taking about the width issues with the system overall and how it’s causing us defensive issues.

However, as you didn’t watch the game you wouldn’t of noticed Lane in particular in that first half having acres of space which caused us problems. We had the warning a few times before he then scored. Unfortunately, the goals are coming down the sides of us like Lincoln did on the Saturday, and Wednesday before this.
 
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