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BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Sep 6, 2006
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When you say 'overlooked', what do you mean by that? Lots of people get overlooked in the workplace, especially in London. How can you know that it's a direct result of their race? You literally have no evidence of that. It's about as convincing as saying if my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle. Again, 'hung out to dry', what exactly do you mean behind these empty words? Can you prove that there's systematic racism behind what you are saying or is it just hear say and pub talk? Lots of people get hung out to dry in London. I know, because I was one of them. In fact, I was replaced by a bunch of ethnic minorities. Not everything is down to race.
So why were you replaced? Were they better at the job? Where is your evidence there ISN'T racism?
 
Aug 15, 2015
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Such a simplistic shallow reply. Quote a few examples and that proves there is no racism. And obviously no understanding of indirect racism, the power of subconscious racism and the structural disadvantages faced by ethnic minorities in housing, education etc.

Such a simplistic shallow reply, but at least it is one, unlike yours. If you're going to reply to me, at least do me the favour of keeping to topic. Metroace was relaying a story about his workplace and suggesting that ethnic minorities were often overlooked and discriminated against, and from what I could see, he was suggesting at the workplace. That's got absolutely nothing to do with structural disadvantages and housing/education. No idea why you have randomly brought that in when it's not on topic.

Secondly Mr. Educated, why don't you tell me about structural disadvantages and housing/education? I mean clearly, I'm not as educated or as informed as you. As someone who comes from a family that could not afford to buy a home in London, that had free school meals, that picked up Education Maintenance Allowance, that lived on council estates, that went to a school that was closed down by Ofsted ... I'm intrigued to see what disadvantages minorities face that white working-class children growing up TODAY, don't. Certain groups of ethnic minorities who lives with their enlarged family and grandparents etc, this is often a cultural thing - not because they are somehow begging on the streets of London. What adantage does an ethnic minority have over a white working class child growing up in London TODAY? A white working class person from London who is now in their 40s or 50s may be better off, because they might have owned property from decades ago, they might have got into the workforce through connections, connections that minorities would not have had. But that's just for a lucky few. Nowadays, the landscape in the workplace is completely different and all companies are pro-diversity. The housing situation has completely changed and is unaffordable regardless of whether you are white (working-class) or not. It's not about race with a lot of these issues, but class.

I'm struggling to understand what you are trying to suggest, that white working-class children have it harder to get housing than ethnic minorities? How? Same for education. When I moved to London as a 14 year old, I had to wait 6 months before a school took me on. I was on a waiting list. I ended up going to Mitcham Vale High School, which doesn't exist anymore and had to re-open as an academy under new ownership. What advantages do white-working class kids have in education? You're confusing race & class. Most of these issues are determined by class, not race. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer. House prices are multiples of what they used to be, which is tidy for the wealthy home-owner and which squeezes out the poor. What's that got to do with race? As in, those determinants affects everyone. There's not some advantage to be held by being a white working class young person. Or please do enlighten me?

Now if you're comparing to white people who are very wealthy, well, that's a totally different kettle of fish. But then that's not to do with race, but their social class and wealth. Most of this country has historically been white, so guess what, the higher classes are likely going to be white. Again, a lot of the issues are to do with class, not race.
 
Aug 15, 2015
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So why were you replaced? Were they better at the job? Where is your evidence there ISN'T racism?
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. I was laid off, plain and simple. I never said that racism was at play? I just said that I along with my team were replaced by ethnic minorities. The company went all pro-diversity with their recruitment, as per my post. So they brought in a bunch of people who fulfilled this aim when they had gaps.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,713
133
Such a simplistic shallow reply, but at least it is one, unlike yours. If you're going to reply to me, at least do me the favour of keeping to topic. Metroace was relaying a story about his workplace and suggesting that ethnic minorities were often overlooked and discriminated against, and from what I could see, he was suggesting at the workplace. That's got absolutely nothing to do with structural disadvantages and housing/education. No idea why you have randomly brought that in when it's not on topic.

Secondly Mr. Educated, why don't you tell me about structural disadvantages and housing/education? I mean clearly, I'm not as educated or as informed as you. As someone who comes from a family that could not afford to buy a home in London, that had free school meals, that picked up Education Maintenance Allowance, that lived on council estates, that went to a school that was closed down by Ofsted ... I'm intrigued to see what disadvantages minorities face that white working-class children growing up TODAY, don't. Certain groups of ethnic minorities who lives with their enlarged family and grandparents etc, this is often a cultural thing - not because they are somehow begging on the streets of London. What adantage does an ethnic minority have over a white working class child growing up in London TODAY? A white working class person from London who is now in their 40s or 50s may be better off, because they might have owned property from decades ago, they might have got into the workforce through connections, connections that minorities would not have had. But that's just for a lucky few. Nowadays, the landscape in the workplace is completely different and all companies are pro-diversity. The housing situation has completely changed and is unaffordable regardless of whether you are white (working-class) or not. It's not about race with a lot of these issues, but class.

I'm struggling to understand what you are trying to suggest, that white working-class children have it harder to get housing than ethnic minorities? How? Same for education. When I moved to London as a 14 year old, I had to wait 6 months before a school took me on. I was on a waiting list. I ended up going to Mitcham Vale High School, which doesn't exist anymore and had to re-open as an academy under new ownership. What advantages do white-working class kids have in education? You're confusing race & class. Most of these issues are determined by class, not race. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer. House prices are multiples of what they used to be, which is tidy for the wealthy home-owner and which squeezes out the poor. What's that got to do with race? As in, those determinants affects everyone. There's not some advantage to be held by being a white working class young person. Or please do enlighten me?

Now if you're comparing to white people who are very wealthy, well, that's a totally different kettle of fish. But then that's not to do with race, but their social class and wealth. Most of this country has historically been white, so guess what, the higher classes are likely going to be white. Again, a lot of the issues are to do with class, not race.
Lots of questions, all answered by the Equalities Commission report on the previous page.

Everyone has their own lived experience but the facts and evidence of inequality in every area of society are detailed there for everyone to see.
 
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. I was laid off, plain and simple. I never said that racism was at play? I just said that I along with my team were replaced by ethnic minorities. The company went all pro-diversity with their recruitment, as per my post. So they brought in a bunch of people who fulfilled this aim when they had gaps.
Your posts, Shoenice, remind me of Flaubert’s statement, ‘there’s no such thing as truth, only perception’. I absolutely share your experience, only up the road at Carshalton, and a few years earlier. You’re right in believing there is evidence of a huge change in corporate attitudes to racism, particularly in the financial sector. I also believe we Brits can be proud of our mult-culturalism compared to most of Europe, and this is evidenced by key cabinet posts and prominent leadership in many organisations. I also like the positive discrimination adopted by the BBC amongst others.

The consequence of our background is that it’s hard to feel empathy for any working class folk, black, white or otherwise, who feel that discrimination still exists and is holding them back. I’m not suggesting that’s your position, but it’s certainly mine if I’m honest.

However I’ve learnt a lot through the friends and colleagues of my children, many of whom are from BAME communities. They tell me of the daily casual racism they experience, and here are just some examples they gave me last week over drinks in my daughter’s London garden.

The black MD of a company who regularly visits companies with his white assistant. On nearly every occasion he is assumed to be the deputy until he explains otherwise.

The black resident of a rather posh apartment in WC1. He is regularly stopped in the building’s common areas by residents, being helpful, who assume he must be looking for somebody.

The black mother whose child was refused entry to a local nursery, until she got a friend to impersonate her over the phone, with a changed accent and surname. Immediate acceptance.

Being sworn at, and even spat on, by low-life on public transport.

Being regularly stopped by police, purely because of colour. The person who told me this is a politician, well known in his area, but apparently not by local police.

So here’s my conclusion. Believing that racism is now almost nonexistent because we’ve come so far is clearly a delusion, only proffered by white people who have a different lived experience. Surely the only solution must be education, and the change in attitudes can only be generational.
I’m mightily encouraged by my London grand-children who genuinely don’t see colour until their teenage years and they become more socially aware. If that time frame can be extended with each generation then we’ll make some progress.
 
Aug 15, 2015
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Your posts, Shoenice, remind me of Flaubert’s statement, ‘there’s no such thing as truth, only perception’. I absolutely share your experience, only up the road at Carshalton, and a few years earlier. You’re right in believing there is evidence of a huge change in corporate attitudes to racism, particularly in the financial sector. I also believe we Brits can be proud of our mult-culturalism compared to most of Europe, and this is evidenced by key cabinet posts and prominent leadership in many organisations. I also like the positive discrimination adopted by the BBC amongst others.

The consequence of our background is that it’s hard to feel empathy for any working class folk, black, white or otherwise, who feel that discrimination still exists and is holding them back. I’m not suggesting that’s your position, but it’s certainly mine if I’m honest.

However I’ve learnt a lot through the friends and colleagues of my children, many of whom are from BAME communities. They tell me of the daily casual racism they experience, and here are just some examples they gave me last week over drinks in my daughter’s London garden.

The black MD of a company who regularly visits companies with his white assistant. On nearly every occasion he is assumed to be the deputy until he explains otherwise.

The black resident of a rather posh apartment in WC1. He is regularly stopped in the building’s common areas by residents, being helpful, who assume he must be looking for somebody.

The black mother whose child was refused entry to a local nursery, until she got a friend to impersonate her over the phone, with a changed accent and surname. Immediate acceptance.

Being sworn at, and even spat on, by low-life on public transport.

Being regularly stopped by police, purely because of colour. The person who told me this is a politician, well known in his area, but apparently not by local police.

So here’s my conclusion. Believing that racism is now almost nonexistent because we’ve come so far is clearly a delusion, only proffered by white people who have a different lived experience. Surely the only solution must be education, and the change in attitudes can only be generational.
I’m mightily encouraged by my London grand-children who genuinely don’t see colour until their teenage years and they become more socially aware. If that time frame can be extended with each generation then we’ll make some progress.

What you are referring to is every day racism by and large through the perceptions of individuals. My point was about institutional racism in the workplace, a systematic approach from the top of organisations to discriminate against ethnic minorities. From what I read on here, it seemed to me that people were suggesting that this is commonplace, and I disagreed. I didn't say that racism was non-existent, just that it's blown out of proportion and that I think that racism is largely on an individual basis, as opposed to something systematic from organisations in somewhere like London.

Whether a person stops a black man and asks if he is looking for someone, or someone assumes a black man is a deputy - that's largely on an individual basis. I can't speak for individuals. And I never once said that there aren't racist individuals out there. The other angle on this is interpretation or perception as you rightly say. You raise these common examples, but I could equally raise common examples, such as the black shop staff in Sainsbury's I recently overheard saying 'I don't sound like no Essex white girl' or examples where it wasn't race that was the issue, despite the supposed victim thinking so. What I'm saying is, in some cases it surely will be race, in others it will be other factors. Quite honestly, I don't buy the idea that people in a community building stop a random black guy consistently. I doubt someone coming home from work at 6 or 7pm, someone who probably just wants to get in and cook dinner, cares enough to shout down the hall and ask a guy if he needs help as he is walking along. Who does that? Maybe the black MD doesn't hold himself with authority? Maybe the women does? Is this the case with every black MD out there? I doubt it. Do I really believe that every person who meets the MD & assistant, makes it brazenly obvious that they think that the white assistant is the MD? Nope, I don't. Not only that, but if someone is meeting an MD, you more than likely know their name, have seen them on LinkedIn or know about them in some way shape or form. And you expect me to believe that an MD regularly has cold meetings with people who have no idea who they are or absolutely no information on them? The way you say it sounds fabricated to be honest. Like it's a situation they have been in thousands of times with the same results every time. It's illogical to even think that as being realistic. If you're an MD, many many people in the industry know you. Sorry, not buying that one. There's no way to categorically say it is race every time unless a situation is replicated so often and with exactly the same results every time, which is not the case in your MD example. I also can't believe that educated professionals with years of professional experience would be so backwards to make that assumption, and ontop of that make it obvious. Therefore, I don't see how you could possibly know if it's race or not with any consistency.

I remember being in a bar in Clapham with a black friend who thought that the white girl said he cannot sit next to her because the seat was taken. He asked me to ask her as he thought she was being unkind to him as a result of him being black, and the girl told me no too. Had I not asked, that false thought would have sat in his head. Last week, I went for a run around Home Park and saw Callum Burton and up ahead I thought I saw Niall Ennis as well. I stared at him from a distance and close up as he looked very similar. I did another lap and did the same thing as I couldn't figure it out, but equally I didn't want to stare too much. In the end, it wasn't Ennis. The guy was staring back at me the whole time with a face that said 'what you looking at'. In the back of his head, he could easily think it's because he's black - in fact, put any young black male in that position and many would think that. But all I was trying to do was work out if that was Niall Ennis.

I'm not saying black people don't experience racism in individual situations or that it is non-existent, but to get back to my original point & to summarise, I don't think that racism is as bad as made out and I don't think we have institutional racism issues in this modern day, b) I don't think BAME people are held back in this country from succeeding, c) there are racist individuals out there and d) perception works both ways. And that's why I won't support BLM or any organisation that is driving an agenda that isn't in line with how UK society actually is. I'll support an anti-racism message/campaing though. Oh and finally, I think class is a far bigger issue than race and is central to many issues that BAME (and white) people face.
 
Sep 8, 2011
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Glenholt
I note that you have decided on your own definition of instituional racism as being “a systematic approach from the top of organisations to discriminate against ethnic minorities.”

So I infer from that you only believe that institutional racism is a thing when it is deliberate, a ‘systematic’ approach from the top’.

However, the commonly accepted definition in the UK dats from 1999 when it was defined by Sir William Macpherson in the UK's Lawrence report as: "The collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin.

Note that this is not a deliberate act, it is not a conscious act. It is the unconscious bias that exists in society.

It is not even just a matter of skin colour. I took issue with someone recently who referred to the travelling community as sub-human. One simply does not write off a whole section of humanity with a glib comment if they are not (to some extent or other) racist.
 
Aug 15, 2015
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I'm just trying to get to the point that I don't believe that racism is some kind of intended systematic process from the top of the organisation. And you are probably right, there's no doubt a lot of unconcious bias. I don't think there's a collective concious bias that's implemented from the top however. How do you tackle the unconcious bias though? We all have unconcious biases. I'm sure there's lots of BAME people who hold unconcious biases against other races. Your average black man may well think they're a better dancer than white people. They may think they are faster than white people. Are you going to address that also? I don't think you/I/we can easily tackle unconcious bias, and I don't think unconcious bias leans against one race more than another. Go to Jamaica and they probably hold a lot of unconcious bias regarding white people.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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Twitter have shared the results of their enquiry into racist abuse following the Euro 2020 final :

"The UK was "by far" the main origin of the "abhorrent racist abuse" on Twitter after England lost the Euro 2020 final, the social media platform has said.

Marcus Rashford, Bukayo Saka and Jadon Sancho were abused after missing in the penalty shootout loss to Italy.
Twitter removed 1,622 tweets in the next 24 hours but identify verification "would have been unlikely to prevent the abuse", it said."

This is just one arm of social media where players were abused.

Hope Not Hate's survey also showed that 72% of people thought that racism is a serious problem in football including 66% of Conservative voters, 62% agreed they were right to bring this to public attention by actions including taking the knee.
 

Daz

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Sep 30, 2003
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Twitter would say that identity verification wouldn't work wouldn't they? Completely absolves them of taking any responsibility for what is posted on their site.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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Twitter would say that identity verification wouldn't work wouldn't they? Completely absolves them of taking any responsibility for what is posted on their site.
It would mean changing their entire model, it would result in a massive reduction in traffic and entail huge costs in policing, so no they're not going to do it.
 

GreenThing

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Sep 13, 2003
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Is it any surprise that the most of the abuse came from the UK? It was an English player and his miss effected the England team. If it was a black, American basketball player that was receiving abuse on Twitter after missing a basket to win an important match, I’d expect that the abuse would come from the US rather than the UK. Those stats don’t really tell us anything.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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At the time it was claimed in some parts of the media that that much of the abuse came from anonymous overseas accounts, at least on Twitter this wasn't the case.

1,622 racist tweets to black footballers on one arm of social media does tell us something.
 

GreenThing

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Doesn’t tell us anything that we didn’t know already.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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Well I didn't know until yesterday there were 1,622 racist tweets on one arm of social media following a football match, which to me shows the scale of the problem, did you?

It'll be news to Shoenice :

"I see 34 UK based people have been targeted by the police for arrest following comments of presumably a racist nature, after the Euro's loss. That's 34 out of a population of at least 66 million, most of whom can access the internet if they want/need. Let's do the Maths, 34/66mn = The number is so low I can't even type it out. Ye, huge issue racism, huge *rolls eyes*.