• Welcome to PASOTI (Sponsored by GA Solictors and Lang & Potter)
  • Hello guests - don't forget that by registering and signing up for Pasoti you'll see less adverts plus receive extras like free match tickets, taking part in polls, joining in the chat room and more. Come and join us!

BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,603
53
Gairloch
themightykeithfear":2w3tb0l4 said:
Frank I don’t tell anyone what to think or do , can you provide one example? No you can’t. I just give my opinion, it’s an opinion forum. Don’t be such a snowflake.

Priceless. The person who accuses others of using name calling and decries the use of words such as 'woke' proceeds to call me a 'snowflake'. The hypocrisy is cringeworthy.

People like you just refuse to consider an alternative view. You stifle debate. It all then becomes one-sided, boring and everyone will stop watching and listening. I'm afraid your style is a microcosm of the polarised world we live in and our politics today - and I have my suspicions of how that has emerged societally.

The world according to tmkf. It's not really all that, is it?

Signing out for a while. So spoil yourself.

#depressing #pointless.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
I apologise Frank the "snowflake" thing was supposed to be ironic and lighthearted, I wouldn't call anyone a pr*ck moron etc as I've been called.

No, I don't tell anyone what to think or do and yes I have strong opinions which I will debate with anyone.
 
Frank_Butcher":2unr3dsn said:
A ridiculous amount of time and space spent on an entirely tokenistic gesture and the response of a minority thereof. If players, or any group, want to demonstrate unity and solidarity for any anti-discriminatory cause then I say fill your boots. I would never boo, and I'm more likely to applaud, but it won't change diddly squat. Nor will telling people what to think or do as is the want of some on here. People do not respond to that kind of 'education'. I've said on several occasions that as John Barnes so rightly cited, telling a racist not to say racist things will not stop that person having racist tendencies.

So I say rather than spend column inches, airtime and forum posts debating a gesture, wouldn't it be much more interesting if we could debate the foundations of racism (and other forms of discrimination) openly and without reproach (or insinuation)? Where are its origins - in poverty, elitism, disenfranchisement, resentment, ignorance, parenting etc etc?

Then we might actuallty start making a tangible difference.

In the spirit of your post Frank, whatever the origins of racism in this country, which are probably a mix of all the possibilities you list, I can give a wonderful practical example of how it can be removed.

My 13 year old grand-daughter and her parents live in a rather affluent pocket of the East End. Their immediate neighbours are an Irishman married to an Indian wife. An Englishman married to a Nigerian wife. A Liverpudlian married to a black wife from North Carolina, and four houses of mainly Eastern Europeans. A black member of the House of Lords lives further down the street.

From toddler stage my grand-daughter has mixed both at home and school with as many children of foreign descent as WASPS, and I have wonderful photos of her school and football groups which look like a meeting of the United Nations.

I’ve had several discussions with her on racism, and because of her lived experience she has only just started to become aware that racism exists outside of her neighbourhood, and she is developing views on how to deal with it.

So here’s my point. Like all society’s ills, racism is almost certainly caused by inequality and ignorance. Remove inequality and provide outstanding education, and the result is my daughter’s neighbourhood.

You may have heard a wonderful radio 4 series a few years ago where Peter Hennessy interviewed all past Prime Ministers still living. At the end of each interview he asked the same question, ‘what is your biggest regret?’ Without exception all replied that they wished they had placed greater emphasis and investment in education. They all realised, too late, that this was the only solution to society’s long term ills.

If we could just find a government with the balls to think beyond the next three elections and genuinely plan, across party divides, for the educational future of coming generations, then racism might slowly disappear. Unfortunately however too slowly for a system where votes are required to stay in office.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
This is the frightening future our children have to look forward to Mervyn.

Last week the Government announced its COVID Education Recovery Fund, The man in charge of it Kevan Collins immediately resigned as he was basically ignored.

"The funding announcement sparked a furious backlash from across the political spectrum, The respected IFS think-tank pointed out that even with previously announced investment the government was spending £310 per pupil compared to £1,600 in the US. The Netherlands has allocated around £2,500 for each child."

Very soon we will have to start paying back the hundreds of billions borrowed in the last year, especially if inflation coming down the road results in interest rate rises. The government will have hard choices , it could look at the wealthier countries with the highest happiness index eg Scandinavia where people pay a bit more tax for excellent public services, but looking at their track record I reckon they'll opt for more backhanders for mates and a new £200 million yacht with extra flags.
 
Jan 20, 2004
760
37
mervyn":2a4d1ajb said:
Frank_Butcher":2a4d1ajb said:
A ridiculous amount of time and space spent on an entirely tokenistic gesture and the response of a minority thereof. If players, or any group, want to demonstrate unity and solidarity for any anti-discriminatory cause then I say fill your boots. I would never boo, and I'm more likely to applaud, but it won't change diddly squat. Nor will telling people what to think or do as is the want of some on here. People do not respond to that kind of 'education'. I've said on several occasions that as John Barnes so rightly cited, telling a racist not to say racist things will not stop that person having racist tendencies.

So I say rather than spend column inches, airtime and forum posts debating a gesture, wouldn't it be much more interesting if we could debate the foundations of racism (and other forms of discrimination) openly and without reproach (or insinuation)? Where are its origins - in poverty, elitism, disenfranchisement, resentment, ignorance, parenting etc etc?

Then we might actuallty start making a tangible difference.

In the spirit of your post Frank, whatever the origins of racism in this country, which are probably a mix of all the possibilities you list, I can give a wonderful practical example of how it can be removed.

My 13 year old grand-daughter and her parents live in a rather affluent pocket of the East End. Their immediate neighbours are an Irishman married to an Indian wife. An Englishman married to a Nigerian wife. A Liverpudlian married to a black wife from North Carolina, and four houses of mainly Eastern Europeans. A black member of the House of Lords lives further down the street.

From toddler stage my grand-daughter has mixed both at home and school with as many children of foreign descent as WASPS, and I have wonderful photos of her school and football groups which look like a meeting of the United Nations.

I’ve had several discussions with her on racism, and because of her lived experience she has only just started to become aware that racism exists outside of her neighbourhood, and she is developing views on how to deal with it.

So here’s my point. Like all society’s ills, racism is almost certainly caused by inequality and ignorance. Remove inequality and provide outstanding education, and the result is my daughter’s neighbourhood.

You may have heard a wonderful radio 4 series a few years ago where Peter Hennessy interviewed all past Prime Ministers still living. At the end of each interview he asked the same question, ‘what is your biggest regret?’ Without exception all replied that they wished they had placed greater emphasis and investment in education. They all realised, too late, that this was the only solution to society’s long term ills.

If we could just find a government with the balls to think beyond the next three elections and genuinely plan, across party divides, for the educational future of coming generations, then racism might slowly disappear. Unfortunately however too slowly for a system where votes are required to stay in office.

Great post Mervyn, and as you have reiterated on many occasions education and engagement is the key to a better future for all.
 
Sep 2, 2008
1,792
23
Frank_Butcher":3kzkw18g said:
themightykeithfear":3kzkw18g said:
Frank I don’t tell anyone what to think or do , can you provide one example? No you can’t. I just give my opinion, it’s an opinion forum. Don’t be such a snowflake.

Priceless. The person who accuses others of using name calling and decries the use of words such as 'woke' proceeds to call me a 'snowflake'. The hypocrisy is cringeworthy.

People like you just refuse to consider an alternative view. You stifle debate. It all then becomes one-sided, boring and everyone will stop watching and listening. I'm afraid your style is a microcosm of the polarised world we live in and our politics today - and I have my suspicions of how that has emerged societally.

The world according to tmkf. It's not really all that, is it?

Signing out for a while. So spoil yourself.

#depressing #pointless.

Amen to that :clap: :nworthy:
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
Hey you won't cancel me that easily Potty , I'll still give my opinions on an opinions Forum!

Back on topic you raised an interesting question earlier about whether or not we can now view those booing the knee as racists when their excuses to date have fallen apart like a cheap suit.

I say no, because no one can know what really goes on inside a person's head, what motivates them. If your social media sites seek to justify it you may think it's justifiable without thinking it through. We can however continue to explain the real reasons for the knee and ask them to respect our players.

Also when people do say things that are wrong and offensive that it's pointed out eg Potty yesterday doubted whether the n word is offensive to some black people, and white people can't judge whether it is offensive. But we know it is deeply offensive, it is defined as the most deliberately offensive word in the English language. In my opinion comments like this would offend many people. Education is the answer.
 
Jul 12, 2016
3,837
0
Frank_Butcher":25pophw4 said:
themightykeithfear":25pophw4 said:
Frank I don’t tell anyone what to think or do , can you provide one example? No you can’t. I just give my opinion, it’s an opinion forum. Don’t be such a snowflake.

Priceless. The person who accuses others of using name calling and decries the use of words such as 'woke' proceeds to call me a 'snowflake'. The hypocrisy is cringeworthy.

People like you just refuse to consider an alternative view. You stifle debate. It all then becomes one-sided, boring and everyone will stop watching and listening. I'm afraid your style is a microcosm of the polarised world we live in and our politics today - and I have my suspicions of how that has emerged societally.

The world according to tmkf. It's not really all that, is it?

Signing out for a while. So spoil yourself.

#depressing #pointless.
Spot on Frank..
 
Jul 12, 2016
3,837
0
themightykeithfear":1c6jbzrs said:
I apologise Frank the "snowflake" thing was supposed to be ironic and lighthearted, I wouldn't call anyone a pr*ck moron etc as I've been called.

No, I don't tell anyone what to think or do and yes I have strong opinions which I will debate with anyone.
You knew exactly what you doing when you used the term "snowflake" You're only apologising to save face.
 

PL2 3DQ

Site Owner
Lowey Sponsor
Pasoti Donor
T.O Support
Oct 31, 2010
17,228
875
Frank_Butcher":39fb48jt said:
themightykeithfear":39fb48jt said:
Frank I don’t tell anyone what to think or do , can you provide one example? No you can’t. I just give my opinion, it’s an opinion forum. Don’t be such a snowflake.

Priceless. The person who accuses others of using name calling and decries the use of words such as 'woke' proceeds to call me a 'snowflake'. The hypocrisy is cringeworthy.

People like you just refuse to consider an alternative view. You stifle debate. It all then becomes one-sided, boring and everyone will stop watching and listening. I'm afraid your style is a microcosm of the polarised world we live in and our politics today - and I have my suspicions of how that has emerged societally.

The world according to tmkf. It's not really all that, is it?

Signing out for a while. So spoil yourself.

#depressing #pointless.

:thumbs:
 
Feb 22, 2008
764
12
Mainly Saltash
oldage":1y8sfh9k said:
themightykeithfear":1y8sfh9k said:
I apologise Frank the "snowflake" thing was supposed to be ironic and lighthearted, I wouldn't call anyone a pr*ck moron etc as I've been called.

No, I don't tell anyone what to think or do and yes I have strong opinions which I will debate with anyone.
You knew exactly what you doing when you used the term "snowflake" You're only apologising to save face.

Which one?
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
So they're piling in because I "stifle debate" even thou I have never done or would do that, I want to hear everything that everybody has to say, how in any way does what I say affect what you can say? Because you don't like it? I'm afraid that's how debates work.

And I apparently love to "tell people what to think or do". Except as you know the opposite is true I would never tell anyone what to think or do, it is anathema to me I hate the far right or left closing down free speech. Me giving an opinion isn't telling anyone what to think or say.

Now how about sticking to the discussion we're having and post something meaningful and relevant?

What do you think about Southgate's comments?
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
oldage":h41zfjd5 said:
themightykeithfear":h41zfjd5 said:
I apologise Frank the "snowflake" thing was supposed to be ironic and lighthearted, I wouldn't call anyone a pr*ck moron etc as I've been called.

No, I don't tell anyone what to think or do and yes I have strong opinions which I will debate with anyone.
You knew exactly what you doing when you used the term "snowflake" You're only apologising to save face.

It was supposed to be funny oldage , I'd take it as a compliment. Yes I did apologize and I've been called pr*ck moron and worse and never received any apology. Potty I'm waiting?
 
Feb 22, 2008
764
12
Mainly Saltash
BLM and its followers are violent and destructive. In the name of BLM cities have been burned to the ground, shops have been looted, innocent people have been terrorised and intimidated into ‘taking the knee’. Etc. If you haven’t seen evidence of this then you haven’t looked very hard. A very large number of people associate ‘taking the knee’ with BLM and, for obvious reasons, aren’t completely happy with endorsing the act.

Why don’t the authorities come up with another, non-political gesture of support for the anti-racist cause. People might be surprised at how much support it gets.