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BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Apr 25, 2016
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1) no I’m saying footballers taking the knee has nothing to do with BLM politics. You know that too but you pretend it does because you don’t seem to like footballers opposing racism.

2) the players have said they support taking the knee, and you’re right none of them have said they want to defund the police. Because they don’t. Only BLM activists have said that and you pretend that has something to do with the footballers stance because their fight against racism seems to upset you.

3. Zaha and Ferdinand both respect it but want to make their protests in different ways. So you and Priti Patel are as one, and as Tyrone Mings pointed out her dog whistle attack on those taking the knee ended with our black players being racially abused.

How did her so called dog attack ended with our black players being racially abused? If she didn’t say anything it would probably happen anyway (happened before her so called dog attack). So prior to her so called dog attack, who is to blame for the racist abuse to players before then?
 

GreenThing

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It’s ok do Ferdinand and Zaha to choose not to take the knee and protest in a different way, yet when Gasparogomez suggests a different way of registering protest he is lambasted for it? It would be interesting to know why Ferdinand and Zaha wish to protest in a different way.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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Its not a dog attack, it's dog whistle politics, ie when you have a hateful politician (in my opinion) like Patel who likes to foment anger and division, then by her attacking the footballers taking the knee it gives others who don't like footballers speaking out against racism justification to do likewise.

Evidence that this true? Read the previous page where Patel was actually quoted by gaspargomez, as in if an elected Minister / BAME attacks footballers standing against racism then it must be ok for me to do so to.

As for your 2nd point I don't quite get what you're trying to say. Was there racism before Patel spoke about taking the knee? Yes. Who is to blame? Err racists.
 
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Nov 15, 2011
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It’s ok do Ferdinand and Zaha to choose not to take the knee and protest in a different way, yet when Gasparogomez suggests a different way of registering protest he is lambasted for it? It would be interesting to know why Ferdinand and Zaha wish to protest in a different way.

Ferdinand and Zaha feel other ways of protest may be more effective which is fine, their opinion.

Gaspar said taking the knee "has to stop" , Gaspar telling footballers they can only protest in his approved way is very different from black players wanting to protest in different ways.
 

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There may be more effective ways of protesting, but taking the knee takes a few seconds and shows solidarity to your teammates. If there are those who decide not to take the knee must feel that there’s something wrong with it. If it was simply that they believe there are more effective ways of demonstrating but the knee is ok, they would do both.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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There may be more effective ways of protesting, but taking the knee takes a few seconds and shows solidarity to your teammates. If there are those who decide not to take the knee must feel that there’s something wrong with it. If it was simply that they believe there are more effective ways of demonstrating but the knee is ok, they would do both.
Perhaps, but we live in a free country where people can demonstrate in the way they choose, yes I know Patel is legislating to lock people up for 10 years if they're noisy and she doesn't like the look of them.

Footballers can show their opposition to racism in any way they choose, they've told you its not political and all you have to do is not look at them for them for 10 seconds if it really upsets you.
 

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It doesn’t upset me in the slightest. I’m questioning why a black person would refuse to take the knee unless they have some reason to believe that it is wrong. It doesn’t take any effort and doesn’t take up any of their time yet it shows solidarity to their team mates. If you refuse to show solidarity, you obviously have a reason to believe it’s wrong. Saying that they don’t do it because they feel there are better ways to get the message across sounds like a nice easy answer because the real answer would stir things up.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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Ferdinand said "Taking the knee was very powerful but we feel that impact has now been diluted."

Zaha said "With taking a knee, sometimes people forget we have to do it. It is becoming something we just do. That is not enough for me."

That's the real answer from them.

Ferdinand isn't a player, so 1 player out of hundreds feels taking the knee isn't enough. Everyone else agrees it is. 60,000 fans and all the players respected it at the Euro final.

I really don't understand what point you are trying to make or what you think is the real answer that would really "stir things up". What is that real answer, I genuinely have no idea, do explain.
 

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Taking the knee has been linked with the political BLM movement. Also, the slogan Black Lives Matter when used by people in a non political way will be linked to the political group because it’s the same three words. If for instance this is the reason why someone decides not to take the knee, it would cause divisions if they came out in the press and said so. It would be much easier and less destructive to the cause to simply say that they believe the knee has become diluted.

Regardless of whether the knee is a political statement or not, it will be seen by some as political because of the words used and the political connections in the past. That is why I feel that Gasparogomez is right that it would be better to use a different slogan and gesture like the kick it out campaign.
 
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Nov 15, 2011
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Yes but its only been linked to the political movement by people like you. Not by the hundreds of players who say it's not linked to that, or the 60,000 fans at the Euro final. And again its not up to you to decide how black and white players show their solidarity against racism.

Linking the footballers BLM message to the US political movement is a choice you've made even though you've been told by those taking the knee it doesn't exist. Why? The Conservative Party in the US believes in the right to arm, do you link that to the Conservative Party here? The Labour Party in Australia believes in private medicare, do you link that to the Labour Party here?

The question is why do you want to link footballers taking the knee it to the BLM political movement when the players taking the knee say it's nothing to do with it, what motivates you to pretend the 2 are linked?
 
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GreenThing

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Read very carefully as you don’t seem to be taking it in. I am not personally linking the BLM movement to the BLM slogan. I take exception to the way you are using phrases such as ‘people like you’ and ‘motivates you to pretend’ to imply that I’m racist when I’m discussing why I believe people are acting in a certain way and trying to be open minded about the debate rather than taking a blinkered approach.

I am explaining that I understand confusion is likely because they use the same actions and slogans. It’s similar to the way that people flying the St George’s cross get labelled fascist as fascists have been known to use the St George’s cross. Do you have to be stupid to believe there is a link between BLM and the BLM slogan? Maybe, maybe not, but it is the stupid people who need educating so if it’s done in a way that will confuse a stupid person, then a different approach needs to be taken.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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I haven't implied you are racist, I have no idea whether that is the case. I'm trying to understand why you are posting again and again about the link between footballers taking the knee and the American political movement when you haven't provided evidence of one person who still thinks that.

The players have explained there's no link, the fans at Wembley realised there's no link so who are these people that still think this? Maybe I read the wrong newspapers but I haven't seen one that links the 2 , so just tell where you get the information that "people" still think footballers taking the knee is linked to US BLM politics?

And you are telling black people to change the way they protest because people are stupid, rather than explaining the gesture to them? Is that right?
 

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No, I’ve explained it but you are too blinkered to take it in. The reason I post over and over again is because you don’t seem to get it. No point banging my head against the wall any more. I’m out.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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Stay with it Green, who are these "people" who still think our footballers taking the knee is linked to the US BLM political movement. Where have you seen / read this?

And I do think I understand what you say, I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind it.
 

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loads of posts on Facebook, Twitter etc for a long long time. It’s obvious that a lot of people link the two. Regardless if there is or isn’t a link, peoples perceived link will stop the message getting across. The important thing is to is to get that message across and if the perceived link cannot be broken, then it makes sense to try a different approach. Digging your heels in and protesting in your way when it’s not working is counter productive.
 
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"Loads of posts on facebook" hmmm , well considering we're talking about football fans and 60,000 fans didn't boo at all a month ago I don't think that "It’s obvious that a lot of people link the two" is actually true.

Further "Digging your heels in and protesting in your way when it’s not working" seems the opposite of what actually happened , they dug their heels in at the start of the Euros and it patently worked!

Maybe the Facebook sites you frequent are not representative of actual football fans ? Perhaps you could educate these "stupid people" as to how the rest of the country understands what our footballers are doing?
 

GreenThing

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Believe what you like, if you don’t think that people post on social media about their perceived link between the gesture and the political group then you’re burying your head in the sand. I’m trying to keep an open mind over what’s going on rather than taking a blinkered view. If you think that the people who don’t get it aren’t worth it, when they are the people who need educating rather than the people who already get it, then you are part of the problem rather than the people you accuse of being part of the problem.

If we’re only talking about the 60,000 at Wembley and that they didn’t boo the knee, job done then, no need to keep taking the knee. However, the problem is more widespread than those at the England match.

You don’t seem to be able to look at the bigger picture and see what’s really going on, you only seem to want to win an argument on an Internet forum. So like I said earlier, I’m out now, I’ve made my points and no point in continuing to bang my head against this wall, if I’m going to bang my head I’ll put some Metallica on.
 
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Nov 15, 2011
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Well I'm on Facebook and Twitter and I follow a wide range of people, including ones I don't agree with. In the last month the only negative reference to the knee I've seen was when the guy was sacked from GB News for taking the knee and Farage and the likes piled in. And we know where they're coming from.

You say I am part of the problem as I think "the people who don’t get it aren’t worth it", which you know is simply not true , I've pointed out time and again on this thread that people need educating as to what the players are doing.

Regarding the 60,000 at Wembley, well in my opinion if they get the message then fans generally have got it, I follow England and was in Marseille for England v Russia and England supporters represent some of the most difficult educational challenges. If they get it then there's hope.

And I don't seek to win an argument, just give my opinion and understand what other people think. Motorhead's my cup of tea.
 
Jan 27, 2012
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Who are you to tell footballers how they should stand against racism?
a paying customer
And at some point you have to stop pretending footballers support BLM politics when they’ve told you they don’t .
You‘ve said this three times now. On each occasion I have asked you to provide evidence of a footballer saying these things and each time you ignore me.

What is it about people fighting against racism that frightens you and upsets you?
Because BLM is not confined to fighting racism. It has wider political aims that I don‘t support. The knee is perceived by some as gesture politics- including some in government.

I dont want politics mixing with sports entertainment.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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1. You pay to watch a football match, not to tell footballers they can't make a 10 second non political stand against racism before the match. If anti racism upsets you so much look away for 10 seconds, I know you can get through it.

2. Gareth Southgate said “I think we have got a situation where some people seem to think it is a political stand that they don’t agree with. That is not the reason the players are doing it. We are supporting each other."

Tyrone Mings said "We’ve spoken about trying to educate or trying to inform the minority who refuse to acknowledge why we’re taking the knee and want to boo it,”

Plymouth's own Conservative Minister Johnny Mercer said regarding Ming's statement "The painful truth is that this guy is completely right. Very uncomfortable with the position we Conservatives are needlessly forcing ourselves into. Do I fight it or stay silent? Modern Conservatism was always so much more to me. We must not lose our way. It's a gesture as one of solidarity against racism. It’s not about the ties of the taking a knee to BLM. It’s about empathy with our fellow countrymen who suffer appalling abuse. Empathy. What it’s like to be them. It’s not hard.”

So it's not political unless you think they are all liars.

3. Footballers taking the knee is confined to fighting racism according to the players, so if you don't think they are liars then you are pretending it's political. Why? You say "The knee is perceived by some as gesture politics- including some in government." So what, they're wrong according to the people doing it.

So we've established it's not political from those actually doing it, but you still pretend it is, so why does our footballers fighting racism upset you so much?