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Black/White ... Male/Female ... Same/Different ...

Jul 15, 2006
3,817
28
Kenton, Devon
I thought this deserved a separate thread, and this is a thought process of my own ... and I could be talking utter bolox (it wouldn't be the first time :greensmile: ), but I was struck by a post over in the BLM thread by GreenThing, and it made me think. He said:

GreenThing":ffeppwwk said:
I agree that black and white are different, but they should be treated the same. Yet the BLM movement seem to think differently.

Now firstly, I was going to reply to this in defence of BLM, but then I stepped back for a moment, and replaced some of the words. The sentence I considered instead was:

I agree that men and women are different, but they should be treated the same. Yet feminists seem to think differently.

And I surprised myself because I had a different personal reaction, and that's because I don't consider myself a feminist. In fact I've gotten into some heated debates with some bloke friends of mine when they come up with tropes like "all men should be feminists". It is a failing of mine but I immediately start to point out the inconsistencies in the feminist call, like them wanting equal jobs and pay ... but you don't see them calling to do the dirty jobs in society; if they want equality then the death-rate in the workplace would be split 50-50 between men and women, rather than skewed 90-10 towards men; that they shouldn't be calling for preferential treatment for prison sentences, or that they should be fighting for the father's right to have an equal chance of having custody of a child if their marriage breaks up, etc, that the suicide rate for men wouldn't be higher than for women, etc

Now I am NOT starting a debate about the rights or wrongs of feminism here (that's for another thread): I am talking about my own personal opinions. The point I am trying to make (and am still working through in my head as I write this, hence why it probably sounds a bit garbled) is that I don't consider myself a bad person: I am a humanist and I believe an equalist and I try to strive for that, but it seems I do have natural preconceived ideas (I'm trying very hard not to say "prejudices" here) which challenges that. After all, if I am an equalist and I have a strong stance towards, say, BLM, why don't I carry that same stance in support of feminism?

I suppose (finally, sorry all!!!) the point I'm trying to make is that - to me, not considering myself a feminist doesn't mean I'm a misogynist (I'd genuinely be horrified if I was ever called that or a Jordan Peterson apologiser). And if that's true, then it is very unfair to consider someone who may have genuine reasons for disagreeing with #BLM a racist, when I am sure the vast majority of them honestly do not consider themselves racist and would be horrified to be considered such.

I'm not expecting replies to this. Just trying to show that I'm not a blinkered leftie, that I do listen, and I do challenge my personal opinions from time to time :greensmile: It's just given me something to ponder over.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,590
103
Quinny that is a very sensible post IMO. Like you I don't like aspects of the right and left , it's so important that people think independently and don't get dragged along by whichever football shirt they're wearing.

I don't agree with some of the political goals of the US BLM movement or those in the UK that sympathise with those goals. I am neither a Marxist or a police defunder. The disingenousness however is those that say they can't respect the England footballers because of the association with aspects of BLM politics. When the footballers tell you it's a non political gesture purely against racism to them then even if you don't agree with them I think you should respect them. Abusing them is just wrong.
 
Jan 20, 2004
701
7
Quinny":1smodpyf said:
I thought this deserved a separate thread, and this is a thought process of my own ... and I could be talking utter bolox (it wouldn't be the first time :greensmile: ), but I was struck by a post over in the BLM thread by GreenThing, and it made me think. He said:

GreenThing":1smodpyf said:
I agree that black and white are different, but they should be treated the same. Yet the BLM movement seem to think differently.

Now firstly, I was going to reply to this in defence of BLM, but then I stepped back for a moment, and replaced some of the words. The sentence I considered instead was:

I agree that men and women are different, but they should be treated the same. Yet feminists seem to think differently.

And I surprised myself because I had a different personal reaction, and that's because I don't consider myself a feminist. In fact I've gotten into some heated debates with some bloke friends of mine when they come up with tropes like "all men should be feminists". It is a failing of mine but I immediately start to point out the inconsistencies in the feminist call, like them wanting equal jobs and pay ... but you don't see them calling to do the dirty jobs in society; if they want equality then the death-rate in the workplace would be split 50-50 between men and women, rather than skewed 90-10 towards men; that they shouldn't be calling for preferential treatment for prison sentences, or that they should be fighting for the father's right to have an equal chance of having custody of a child if their marriage breaks up, etc, that the suicide rate for men wouldn't be higher than for women, etc

Now I am NOT starting a debate about the rights or wrongs of feminism here (that's for another thread): I am talking about my own personal opinions. The point I am trying to make (and am still working through in my head as I write this, hence why it probably sounds a bit garbled) is that I don't consider myself a bad person: I am a humanist and I believe an equalist and I try to strive for that, but it seems I do have natural preconceived ideas (I'm trying very hard not to say "prejudices" here) which challenges that. After all, if I am an equalist and I have a strong stance towards, say, BLM, why don't I carry that same stance in support of feminism?

I suppose (finally, sorry all!!!) the point I'm trying to make is that - to me, not considering myself a feminist doesn't mean I'm a misogynist (I'd genuinely be horrified if I was ever called that or a Jordan Peterson apologiser). And if that's true, then it is very unfair to consider someone who may have genuine reasons for disagreeing with #BLM a racist, when I am sure the vast majority of them honestly do not consider themselves racist and would be horrified to be considered such.

I'm not expecting replies to this. Just trying to show that I'm not a blinkered leftie, that I do listen, and I do challenge my personal opinions from time to time :greensmile: It's just given me something to ponder over.

Some interesting points Quinny and you are right, males and females are miles apart basically down to the fact that we males are crammed with between ten to twenty times more testosterone than our female counterparts. There are a lot of different factors, but this basically results in males being a lot more competitive and less attentive to detail. Being brought up in a household full of females I have certainly been put in my place on more than one occasion. :silent:

There are no clear and cut answers to life but if, as Atticus pointed out, a person were to attempt to walk around in someone else's shoes for a day we would live in a more tolerant and empathetic world.

Black/ white, male/female, live and let live, it's simple, if we treat others the way we would like to be treated, we'd all get along just fine.