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After Brexit

Frank Butcher

Foodbank Donor
Oct 9, 2003
3,603
53
Gairloch
Sorry Frank but I really don’t think it is a valid question. I find it quite insulting to be asked why I’m still living in my own country, my own home , the place where my family, my wife and my kids, even my bloody dog live and where they belong etc. Simply because I dare criticise the government and say that (in my opinion) Brexit was a massive act of national self-harm? It is the question of last resort. The one thrown back when the points and criticisms people like me make can’t be answered. Dare I say it but it also has a nasty whiff of the “why don’t you people go back home then?” when anyone with foreign heritage appears to criticise the UK.

As for GG’s long post above – then apart from his attempt at defending that question – then I actually have to accept much of the rest of what he says. Remainers did mount a pretty woeful campaign in 2016 by continually pointing out the negatives and problems that leaving the EU would cause. We rarely put forward the positives or spoke of the ‘vision thing’ of European unity etc…… I was as guilty as anyone and sure if you trawled posts from those times I would have been one of the worst culprits. It was such an easy target, it was so easy to point to all the mountain of evidence of disadvantages if we left the EU. But we blew it. Many people switched off and we seemed to be just defending the status quo and trying to scare people who had genuine fears and problems with that status quo and they wanted to shake things up.

Anyway, water under the bridge now and GG’s right in that it is time for Remoaners like me to move on. Maybe most of us remoaners and leavers can find some common ground though?

The thing is that Brexit had no defined meaning - there was a smorgasbord of possible Brexits to choose from. Fancy a Canadian version, or Norweigan model, or Swiss model ? Hard or soft Brexit? Join EFTA? Do you want in-or-out the Custom’s union and/or in-or-out the single market? The point I’m trying to make is the Brexit we have doesn’t have to be like this. This is the Boris Brexit that helped get his egotistical a’rse in Downing street with little or no thought into the long term consequences or how it would actually work. Theresa May said no PM would ever countenance a border down the Irish Sea but agreed the land border in Ireland should be virtually ‘frictionless’ to preserve the GF agreement. By definition then that meant she wanted a close alignment with the EU – but this outraged the Brexit ‘spartans’ who then repeatedly scuppered her deal. Boris saw his chance, ripped up that agreement to “get Brexit done” and signed up to a hasty treaty he seems not to have understood or willfully had no intention of keeping….. and now its unravelling. The Irish problem is still simmering and looks like coming to the boil again very soon, and support for Scottish independence is at a record high. Anyone notice Theresa May’s intervention this week saying the Boris’s Brexit deal threatens the break up of the union?

But there are other options …. Wouldn’t it make sense to stay close to the EU at least to begin with, so the borders will be more-or-less open and we wouldn’t have all the issues we are seeing now? I’m sure the EU would jump at it. OK – I know the Brexit Spartans would hate it and we would have to follow rules we’re not actually making …….but surely we can then have an ongoing negotiation and begin to diverge in certain areas over time and we can pick and choose our battles when it suits us for the sectors that suit us? Maybe it would give us time to get our s**t together and embark on a massive skills programme to get people trained in the areas we currently rely on EU labour for? I’m thinking out loud here and not sure of the legalities - but could we charge a small levy on employers who hire EU workers to fund the training and so also nudge them to find British workers if they can? I don’t have answers – but it needn’t be like this.
Normally I’d agree with you Ave_IT, but the negativity never stops - on any subject, not just Brexit. It’s why I chose to Ignore, you can’t debate with someone so polarised because they can’t accept they can be wrong or even see a different point of view. You and I may differ at times, as with Quinny, Micky and others but each of us - I think - have the capacity to see the other point of view - and maybe even change our minds on occasion. In this case it’s pointless.

It genuinely makes me wonder why someone would want to endure such a terrible existence if they have the means to escape it. Hence the question. Hey ho …

On Brexit you have some good suggestions there.
 
Jan 20, 2004
760
37
Sorry Frank but I really don’t think it is a valid question. I find it quite insulting to be asked why I’m still living in my own country, my own home , the place where my family, my wife and my kids, even my bloody dog live and where they belong etc. Simply because I dare criticise the government and say that (in my opinion) Brexit was a massive act of national self-harm? It is the question of last resort. The one thrown back when the points and criticisms people like me make can’t be answered. Dare I say it but it also has a nasty whiff of the “why don’t you people go back home then?” when anyone with foreign heritage appears to criticise the UK.

As for GG’s long post above – then apart from his attempt at defending that question – then I actually have to accept much of the rest of what he says. Remainers did mount a pretty woeful campaign in 2016 by continually pointing out the negatives and problems that leaving the EU would cause. We rarely put forward the positives or spoke of the ‘vision thing’ of European unity etc…… I was as guilty as anyone and sure if you trawled posts from those times I would have been one of the worst culprits. It was such an easy target, it was so easy to point to all the mountain of evidence of disadvantages if we left the EU. But we blew it. Many people switched off and we seemed to be just defending the status quo and trying to scare people who had genuine fears and problems with that status quo and they wanted to shake things up.

Anyway, water under the bridge now and GG’s right in that it is time for Remoaners like me to move on. Maybe most of us remoaners and leavers can find some common ground though?

The thing is that Brexit had no defined meaning - there was a smorgasbord of possible Brexits to choose from. Fancy a Canadian version, or Norweigan model, or Swiss model ? Hard or soft Brexit? Join EFTA? Do you want in-or-out the Custom’s union and/or in-or-out the single market? The point I’m trying to make is the Brexit we have doesn’t have to be like this. This is the Boris Brexit that helped get his egotistical a’rse in Downing street with little or no thought into the long term consequences or how it would actually work. Theresa May said no PM would ever countenance a border down the Irish Sea but agreed the land border in Ireland should be virtually ‘frictionless’ to preserve the GF agreement. By definition then that meant she wanted a close alignment with the EU – but this outraged the Brexit ‘spartans’ who then repeatedly scuppered her deal. Boris saw his chance, ripped up that agreement to “get Brexit done” and signed up to a hasty treaty he seems not to have understood or willfully had no intention of keeping….. and now its unravelling. The Irish problem is still simmering and looks like coming to the boil again very soon, and support for Scottish independence is at a record high. Anyone notice Theresa May’s intervention this week saying the Boris’s Brexit deal threatens the break up of the union?

But there are other options …. Wouldn’t it make sense to stay close to the EU at least to begin with, so the borders will be more-or-less open and we wouldn’t have all the issues we are seeing now? I’m sure the EU would jump at it. OK – I know the Brexit Spartans would hate it and we would have to follow rules we’re not actually making …….but surely we can then have an ongoing negotiation and begin to diverge in certain areas over time and we can pick and choose our battles when it suits us for the sectors that suit us? Maybe it would give us time to get our s**t together and embark on a massive skills programme to get people trained in the areas we currently rely on EU labour for? I’m thinking out loud here and not sure of the legalities - but could we charge a small levy on employers who hire EU workers to fund the training and so also nudge them to find British workers if they can? I don’t have answers – but it needn’t be like this.
Exactly Ave it, nobody actually defined Brexit before an in or out vote was thrust upon us. So when the result turned out the way it did, we should and still could have taken it in stages by initially staying in the Single Market, while we worked out the finer details and in what exact direction we wanted to take our country, rather than just crashing our economy.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
Normally I’d agree with you Ave_IT, but the negativity never stops - on any subject, not just Brexit. It’s why I chose to Ignore, you can’t debate with someone so polarised because they can’t accept they can be wrong or even see a different point of view. You and I may differ at times, as with Quinny, Micky and others but each of us - I think - have the capacity to see the other point of view - and maybe even change our minds on occasion. In this case it’s pointless.

It genuinely makes me wonder why someone would want to endure such a terrible existence if they have the means to escape it. Hence the question. Hey ho …

On Brexit you have some good suggestions there.
Frank can you pleeeeease stop talking about me and stick to the discussion , I'm pretty thick skinned but it's just getting tiresome, the Forum rules say "Debates are fine, but critique the opinion, not the person".

I know you've cancelled me and that's fine but please have the decency not to attack me.
 

Willis88

50/50 Sponsor
Jan 17, 2017
3,548
118
32
Bovey Tracey
So they say every society is just 2 cooked meals away from anarchy.

Given, as i speak, thousands of animals are being slaughtered and perfectly good meat being incinerated all due to a labour shortage (which is a direct result of Brexit), how long until we're told by our dear leader that we'll have to kill our own food for Christmas day?

At this point I'm starting to wonder whether Britain will even make it to Christmas without some sort of internal collapse.

But still we've taken back control (except of our electricity which France is threatening to pull over our ignorance over the fishing agreement).
 
Sep 6, 2006
11,605
473
Normally I’d agree with you Ave_IT, but the negativity never stops - on any subject, not just Brexit. It’s why I chose to Ignore, you can’t debate with someone so polarised because they can’t accept they can be wrong or even see a different point of view. You and I may differ at times, as with Quinny, Micky and others but each of us - I think - have the capacity to see the other point of view - and maybe even change our minds on occasion. In this case it’s pointless.

It genuinely makes me wonder why someone would want to endure such a terrible existence if they have the means to escape it. Hence the question. Hey ho …

On Brexit you have some good suggestions there.
People changing their minds and seeing others points of view. Wow good luck with that.
 
May 16, 2016
3,874
216
So they say every society is just 2 cooked meals away from anarchy.

Given, as i speak, thousands of animals are being slaughtered and perfectly good meat being incinerated all due to a labour shortage (which is a direct result of Brexit), how long until we're told by our dear leader that we'll have to kill our own food for Christmas day?

At this point I'm starting to wonder whether Britain will even make it to Christmas without some sort of internal collapse.

But still we've taken back control (except of our electricity which France is threatening to pull over our ignorance over the fishing agreement).
"But still we've taken back control (except of our electricity which France is threatening to pull over our ignorance over the fishing agreement)."

Excuse my ignorance here if I've got it wrong, but it's our fault that France is disproportionately threatening to cut electricity supplies off ?

The people responsible for ensuring our hospitals can continue to operate, keep the lights, heating and power on for our Grandparents and infants, now have the stress of potentially trying to replace energy on a French whim because it's our fault that the beaurocracy of post Brexit living only applies to us a 3rd country ? Licenses to fish are being issued to those that can prove a history of doing so legally before, but some French boats unsurprisingly cant? Even to a Remainer like me, that seems fair enough. Especially considering the hoops we're now expected to jump through to function anywhere near as normal as we did.

I'm sure when our Grandparents and Parents sat in their Andersons listening to the Plymouth blitz going on around them, didn't think "well matey did say Peace in our time, so we can't blame them if he didn't get it right ".
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
I see the usual hate filled right wing press are trying to whip up hatred against another country this morning, it’s the French this time. I guessed this would happen eventually, who do you blame for Brexit when it’s a disaster, the papers that told you to vote for it based on lies and xenophobia, or the EU who didn’t want it? And don’t even mention the fact that we’re less in control since we’ve taken back control.

And bizarre references to ww2, their older readership still obsessing about it, living in the past, seeing our friends as our enemies, jeez we won get over it. But I suppose you can’t blame them , their readership love the hate, love the lies and it’s a big thumbs up to his client journalists from Johnson, people are furious at the French who didn’t want this rather than at him, who’s lies have caused this misery.
 
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Feb 26, 2012
1,742
129
Ivybridge
I see the usual hate filled right wing press are trying to whip up hatred against another country this morning, it’s the French this time. I guessed this would happen eventually, who do you blame for Brexit when it’s a disaster, the papers that told you to vote for it based on lies and xenophobia, or the EU who didn’t want it? And don’t even mention the fact that we’re less in control since we’ve taken back control.

And bizarre references to ww2, their older readership still obsessing about it, living in the past, seeing our friends as our enemies, jeez we won get over it. But I suppose you can’t blame them , their readership love the hate, love the lies and it’s a big thumbs up to his client journalists from Johnson, people are furious at the French who didn’t want this rather than at him, who’s lies have caused this misery.
The strange thing is that those who actually fought in WW2 are mostly no longer with us...it is the children of those people who seem to be obsessed with fighting old battles they weren't actually involved in!
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
People in Europe just don't get the WW2 obsession. When I worked in Brussels people saw it as an incredibly sad time that we should never forget, we should learn from but we should look forward. European cooperation and unity in the way Churchill espoused resulted in the Common Market and then with Thatcher the architect of the Single Market.

My Dad fought in the war and passed away just before the referendum, he was appalled at the backward step the country was contemplating.

But the WW2 obsession works for the right wing press as an integral part of Brexit. They have to have an enemy in order to distract from the fact their millionaire tax dodging owners in hock with the Government are making the rich obscenely richer and the poor poorer. That enemy, that object of blame can be variously asylum seekers, lefties, the BBC, the National Trust, Unions, Students, doctors or judges, take your pick. But in the context of Brexit WW2 works a treat.
 
Jul 15, 2006
3,892
57
Kenton, Devon
Excuse my ignorance here if I've got it wrong, but it's our fault that France is disproportionately threatening to cut electricity supplies off ?

It won't come to that, and I think that threat was exaggerated by elements of the British press. The European Union can take proportional action against the UK over the Jersey dispute: France cannot do so alone, without the backing of the other EU members. And even if it came to that, the UK could take it to arbitration so that the courts could decide whether such action was proportionate or not.

It's much more likely that French fishermen would blockade the port of Calais as a form of protest.
 
May 16, 2016
3,874
216
It won't come to that, and I think that threat was exaggerated by elements of the British press. The European Union can take proportional action against the UK over the Jersey dispute: France cannot do so alone, without the backing of the other EU members. And even if it came to that, the UK could take it to arbitration so that the courts could decide whether such action was proportionate or not.

It's much more likely that French fishermen would blockade the port of Calais as a form of protest.
But amongst other things, the French EU Minister did say

“We defend our interests. We do it nicely, and diplomatically, but when that doesn’t work we take measures. The Channel Islands, the UK, are dependent on us for their energy supply. They think they can live on their own and badmouth Europe as well. And because it doesn’t work, they indulge in one-upmanship, and in an aggressive way.”

Nothing exagerated there, also from the same article

"in case of a dispute with Jersey the EU can take unilateral measures “proportionate to the alleged failure by the respondent party and the economic and societal impact thereof”."

I might have misread, but, I'm not sure cutting off power or even hinting at it over the 35 ungranted inshore French applications out of the 1800 or so granted (by the UK) to the EU across all waters, is proportionate or globally endearing for any nation or bloc. Yet such action seems to be considered "our fault" and we should apologise for being threatened in such a way. A point that was missed in my earlier comments.
 
Nov 15, 2011
1,896
300
But amongst other things, the French EU Minister did say

“We defend our interests. We do it nicely, and diplomatically, but when that doesn’t work we take measures. The Channel Islands, the UK, are dependent on us for their energy supply. They think they can live on their own and badmouth Europe as well. And because it doesn’t work, they indulge in one-upmanship, and in an aggressive way.”

Nothing exagerated there, also from the same article

"in case of a dispute with Jersey the EU can take unilateral measures “proportionate to the alleged failure by the respondent party and the economic and societal impact thereof”."

I might have misread, but, I'm not sure cutting off power or even hinting at it over the 35 ungranted inshore French applications out of the 1800 or so granted (by the UK) to the EU across all waters, is proportionate or globally endearing for any nation or bloc. Yet such action seems to be considered "our fault" and we should apologise for being threatened in such a way. A point that was missed in my earlier comments.
Lord Frost says the action is "unreasonable" This is the guy who is threatening to rip up the Northern Ireland Protocol, part of an International Treaty that he negotaited and agreed , part of the lauded fantastic deal that got Brexit done and won the Tories an election. This is the Government that introduced legislation in Parliament to break International Law in a "specific and limited way". What the French are doing we may think is unreasonable, what the UK legislated for is in their own words illegal.

I wonder if the boot was on the other foot what the Mail / Express headlines would be? Maybe "Boris Pulls the Plug as Brexit Britain Flexes Muscles" ?
 
Feb 26, 2012
1,742
129
Ivybridge
But amongst other things, the French EU Minister did say

“We defend our interests. We do it nicely, and diplomatically, but when that doesn’t work we take measures. The Channel Islands, the UK, are dependent on us for their energy supply. They think they can live on their own and badmouth Europe as well. And because it doesn’t work, they indulge in one-upmanship, and in an aggressive way.”

Nothing exagerated there, also from the same article

"in case of a dispute with Jersey the EU can take unilateral measures “proportionate to the alleged failure by the respondent party and the economic and societal impact thereof”."

I might have misread, but, I'm not sure cutting off power or even hinting at it over the 35 ungranted inshore French applications out of the 1800 or so granted (by the UK) to the EU across all waters, is proportionate or globally endearing for any nation or bloc. Yet such action seems to be considered "our fault" and we should apologise for being threatened in such a way. A point that was missed in my earlier comments.
Both countries leveraging the power they think they have. Hopefully common sense will prevail.
 
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Every day I believe that Johnson has surely reached breaking point with the electorate’s gullibility, and I’m constantly proved wrong. Today he achieved applause and plaudits from the Tory faithful as he outlined why the lack of staff in key sectors is all the fault of industry itself, and by implication nothing to do with any lack of post-Brexit planning. Can anyone remember during the ‘get Brexit done’ election a single mention of the need for industry and services to improve their training, increase investment levels and raise wages in anticipation of the need to replace skilled EU workers in so many sectors?

So, having laid the blame squarely at the feet of industry itself, he will obviously continue to blame companies and organisations for the consequences for care homes, agriculture, fishing and services when shortages and company failures occur. It’s all down to you lot. We all want to see higher wages and greater investment in our companies and institutions, but I don’t remember him saying at the last election ‘we’re going to make all this happen by deliberately starving companies of key staff and force you to replace them by paying higher wages to new employees requiring fresh training, or not replace them by improving automation, and you’ve got 12 months to do it’. Yet he now presents this as a deliberate, planned strategy!
 
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Dec 27, 2004
763
34
Bidford on Avon
Every day I believe that Johnson has surely reached breaking point with the electorate’s gullibility, and I’m constantly proved wrong. Today he achieved applause and plaudits from the Tory faithful as he outlined why the lack of staff in key sectors is all the fault of industry itself, and by implication nothing to do with any lack of post-Brexit planning. Can anyone remember during the ‘get Brexit done’ election a single mention of the need for industry and services to improve their training, increase investment levels and raise wages in anticipation of the need to replace skilled EU workers in so many sectors?

So, having laid the blame squarely at the feet of industry itself, he will obviously continue to blame companies and organisations for the consequences for care homes, agriculture, fishing and services when shortages and company failures occur. It’s all down to you lot. We all want to see higher wages and greater investment in our companies and institutions, but I don’t remember him saying at the last election ‘we’re going to make all this happen by deliberately starving companies of key staff and force you to replace them by paying higher wages to new employees requiring fresh training, or not replace them by improving automation, and you’ve got 12 months to do it’. Yet he now presents this as a deliberate, planned strategy!
That's the thing with cults though.

When it pops and the Emperor's revealed as naked everyone will say "no I never believed in him, not me"

I wouldn't employ him to run a sweet shop.


We have to have guts - says the bloke who hid in a fridge to avoid answering questions.

Seriously how low can the deluded, incompetent moron go.

He lacks dignity, morality, understanding, empathy, common sense, responsibility, commitment, accountability.

In short he is a slob.

The worst PM ever.

It's everyone else's fault, not mine .... I'm off 🏃💨

I didn't sit on the fence did I? 🤔
 
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