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After Brexit

Nov 15, 2011
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It was a genuine question, Ave It saw something that wasn't there.
You spend most of your time running down the UK while championing the EU so it's only natural to ask have you ever thought of moving abroad.

How did I stop you leaving?

The first few years of Brexit was always going to be difficult, especially with a pandemic around.
Once things settle down after 3, 4 or 5 years the situation should be a lot better for the UK.
You’re the one who ran down the U.K. by voting brexit. Economically things can never be better outside the single market, the biggest free trading bloc in the world on our doorstep where we sell half our stuff. And outside it we won’t get our freedoms back.

I just don’t buy this you don’t love your country bit because you wanted it’s people not to be poorer , to retain their freedoms for themselves their kids and grandchildren, to let them have the dreams and opportunities we had. Voting brexit was the most unpatriotic act of self harm imaginable imo.
 
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May 16, 2016
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I must be one of the less angry Remainers (one who actually spends time outside of the UK) who's prepared to admit I failed, failed to convince or explain well enough to the Brexit voters I spoke to during the run up to the referendum. Failed to prevent what (outside of the global influence of covid) has, in the first period of its readjustment had a quite a disruptive effect on our daily lives, but I'm prepared to accept that Brexit is a process and not an event and that we're just at the start of the long change.

What I'm not prepared to do however, is spend the rest of my days stamping my feet in a never ending teenage strop because life isn't perfect - spoiler alert - it never was. It's also incredibly short and fragile, so why waste it ? I don't feel the need to look down on anyone who didn't vote as I wanted, I don't feel the need to continually point out our problems or post memes and links to some report that waffles on about percentages and numbers of whatever to prove some sort of intellectual or cultural superiority. I don't crave chaos to prove a point. In fact, the more I read some of the more consistent contributors on Social Media with their copy and paste whinges, the continual slagging off of the Government, anyone working to provide a brighter future or those that voted for it, the more I'm leaning towards supporting Brexit, doing what I can to help it be successful and have started seeing the EU through different eyes. In reality we should all be supporting our post Brexit country and looking forward if we genuinely want the it and our kids futures to have the hope some feel they've lost.

"You were warned this would happen" , "we said this was coming" are standard types of response from people who appear to have ignored their own advice and are still here, still dummy spitting their way through excuses for not preparing adequately themselves. We've all had several years to adjust, not just since the start of whatever we've deemed to be the latest crisis.

It is a genuine question to ask why someone is still here if they continually moan about living in the UK. Why bring your kids up in "Little Britain" with its many faults and lack of opportunity? They and you could be living the culturally enriched lives we've apparently lost, speaking at least two languages, enjoying life within the bloc and its lack of shortages, perfect health care and its friendly smiley faces.

One of the standard Social Media questions to attack Brexit are "name one tangible benefit of Brexit", nobody ever gives much more than a bog standard slogan answer, but conversley, nobody ever answers the "so, why are you still here?" one either, at least not without appearing slightly hypocritical after threatening to be gone before the ink was dry on their ballot papers.

Bottom line is Brexit was crap, no more than a Boris Johnson / David Cameron leadership campaign vehicle, the case to stay in the EU was badly run (still is) by Remainers. It's happened, deal with it. Move on.

Before hitting "post", I've already seen some of the responses to this post, that's how routine and predictable it's all become.
 
Feb 26, 2012
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Ivybridge
Good post Guiri. I share all of Mighty Keith's frustrations but have a similar attitude to you on moving forward. Cameron made a calculation that holding a ballot would appease those (voters and MPs) on the right of the party as they feared losing votes to Farage...he never expected the vote to be in favour of leaving, like most MPs he underestimated the fairly visceral concerns some of the population had about immigration.

So we move forward. My own feeling is that a sea change is coming in terms of politics...the demographic is changing and the younger generations will eventually drive out the old order...perhaps (if they can be motivated to vote) even at the next election. Then it will get interesting.
 
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Frank Butcher

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Oct 9, 2003
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Gairloch
Sorry postey but surely you can see it has the ring of the play ground to ask "why don't you go move abroard then?" . Does that constitute raising a serious question? Mkf seems quite chilled about it but my reaction was an angry "WTF should I?" ..... and that provoked my rant.
(Calmed down a bit now I've got it off my chest ...... didn't mean to offend .)
I’ve asked that question of tmkf before - on threads totally unrelated to Brexit. Pick one, it’s continual criticism of our country. So much so that you’d struggle to see anything posted that is positive - completely polarised. So I’d say the question is valid.

The blessing is that the Ignore function is so much better in this version of Pasoti because you don’t even see the quoted content.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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But you can’t move forward until you recognise the problem and this government never will, so things will get worse.

And I spent a lot of time in the EU I worked in Brussels, speak fluent French and spent around a third of my time in Spain for 6 years.

My kids don’t want to move away from their friends if that’s ok with you.

And Guiri I don’t “crave chaos” I hate it as I’ve said - wheres Daz chiding you for misrepresenting my views, he’s red hot on that when I do it - recognising something so it can be fixed isn’t craving it as you well knew but chose to ignore. That’s how routine and predictable this has all come.
 

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Oct 31, 2010
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You’re the one who ran down the U.K. by voting brexit. Economically things can never be better outside the single market, the biggest free trading bloc in the world on our doorstep where we sell half our stuff. And outside it we won’t get our freedoms back.

I just don’t buy this you don’t love your country bit because you wanted it’s people not to be poorer , to retain their freedoms for themselves their kids and grandchildren, to let them have the dreams and opportunities we had. Voting brexit was the most unpatriotic act of self harm imaginable imo.

You don't know how I voted.
 
May 16, 2016
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But you can’t move forward until you recognise the problem and this government never will, so things will get worse.

And I spent a lot of time in the EU I worked in Brussels, speak fluent French and spent around a third of my time in Spain for 6 years.

My kids don’t want to move away from their friends if that’s ok with you.

And Guiri I don’t “crave chaos” I hate it as I’ve said - wheres Daz chiding you for misrepresenting my views, he’s red hot on that when I do it - recognising something so it can be fixed isn’t craving it as you well knew but chose to ignore. That’s how routine and predictable this has all come.
?
Who was addressing you ?
 
Nov 15, 2011
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I’ve asked that question of tmkf before - on threads totally unrelated to Brexit. Pick one, it’s continual criticism of our country. So much so that you’d struggle to see anything posted that is positive - completely polarised. So I’d say the question is valid.

The blessing is that the Ignore function is so much better in this version of Pasoti because you don’t even see the quoted .
For someone who says he’s cancelled me , and ignored me he does spend a lot of time obsessing on me and not ignoring me. And he does seem to be desperate to tell everyone else to ignore me and whip up more cancel culture. And he does seem to know a helluva lot of the details of what I’ve said.

And it all boils down to nationalism v patriotism. Patriots like me want the best for their people, nationalists don’t care for the harm they inflict on their own people as long as think they’ve given Johnny Foreigner a bloody nose. Which they haven’t.
 
Feb 26, 2012
1,827
228
Ivybridge
But you can’t move forward until you recognise the problem and this government never will, so things will get worse.

And I spent a lot of time in the EU I worked in Brussels, speak fluent French and spent around a third of my time in Spain for 6 years.

My kids don’t want to move away from their friends if that’s ok with you.

And Guiri I don’t “crave chaos” I hate it as I’ve said - wheres Daz chiding you for misrepresenting my views, he’s red hot on that when I do it - recognising something so it can be fixed isn’t craving it as you well knew but chose to ignore. That’s how routine and predictable this has all come.
It's not politically expedient for this Government to recognise the problem (any problem). The solutions will be provided at ground level by people and businesses adapting and eventually, I hope, at the ballot box. Watching the Tory conference gives me hope...they really are a busted flush. I was once a strategic planner (and like you worked in the EU for a while...mainly Luxembourg) and you know that when people start talking about 10 year planning horizons its BS.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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?
Who was addressing you ?
You were , the post was mostly an attack on me, where I bring up my kids, how i moan etc and the way I perceive people who voted brexit. Which by the way was completely wrong.

Try to stick to what you think about post brexit Britain rather than misrepresenting what I think.
 
Apr 15, 2004
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East Devon
I’ve asked that question of tmkf before - on threads totally unrelated to Brexit. Pick one, it’s continual criticism of our country. So much so that you’d struggle to see anything posted that is positive - completely polarised. So I’d say the question is valid.
Sorry Frank but I really don’t think it is a valid question. I find it quite insulting to be asked why I’m still living in my own country, my own home , the place where my family, my wife and my kids, even my bloody dog live and where they belong etc. Simply because I dare criticise the government and say that (in my opinion) Brexit was a massive act of national self-harm? It is the question of last resort. The one thrown back when the points and criticisms people like me make can’t be answered. Dare I say it but it also has a nasty whiff of the “why don’t you people go back home then?” when anyone with foreign heritage appears to criticise the UK.

As for GG’s long post above – then apart from his attempt at defending that question – then I actually have to accept much of the rest of what he says. Remainers did mount a pretty woeful campaign in 2016 by continually pointing out the negatives and problems that leaving the EU would cause. We rarely put forward the positives or spoke of the ‘vision thing’ of European unity etc…… I was as guilty as anyone and sure if you trawled posts from those times I would have been one of the worst culprits. It was such an easy target, it was so easy to point to all the mountain of evidence of disadvantages if we left the EU. But we blew it. Many people switched off and we seemed to be just defending the status quo and trying to scare people who had genuine fears and problems with that status quo and they wanted to shake things up.

Anyway, water under the bridge now and GG’s right in that it is time for Remoaners like me to move on. Maybe most of us remoaners and leavers can find some common ground though?

The thing is that Brexit had no defined meaning - there was a smorgasbord of possible Brexits to choose from. Fancy a Canadian version, or Norweigan model, or Swiss model ? Hard or soft Brexit? Join EFTA? Do you want in-or-out the Custom’s union and/or in-or-out the single market? The point I’m trying to make is the Brexit we have doesn’t have to be like this. This is the Boris Brexit that helped get his egotistical a’rse in Downing street with little or no thought into the long term consequences or how it would actually work. Theresa May said no PM would ever countenance a border down the Irish Sea but agreed the land border in Ireland should be virtually ‘frictionless’ to preserve the GF agreement. By definition then that meant she wanted a close alignment with the EU – but this outraged the Brexit ‘spartans’ who then repeatedly scuppered her deal. Boris saw his chance, ripped up that agreement to “get Brexit done” and signed up to a hasty treaty he seems not to have understood or willfully had no intention of keeping….. and now its unravelling. The Irish problem is still simmering and looks like coming to the boil again very soon, and support for Scottish independence is at a record high. Anyone notice Theresa May’s intervention this week saying the Boris’s Brexit deal threatens the break up of the union?

But there are other options …. Wouldn’t it make sense to stay close to the EU at least to begin with, so the borders will be more-or-less open and we wouldn’t have all the issues we are seeing now? I’m sure the EU would jump at it. OK – I know the Brexit Spartans would hate it and we would have to follow rules we’re not actually making …….but surely we can then have an ongoing negotiation and begin to diverge in certain areas over time and we can pick and choose our battles when it suits us for the sectors that suit us? Maybe it would give us time to get our s**t together and embark on a massive skills programme to get people trained in the areas we currently rely on EU labour for? I’m thinking out loud here and not sure of the legalities - but could we charge a small levy on employers who hire EU workers to fund the training and so also nudge them to find British workers if they can? I don’t have answers – but it needn’t be like this.
 
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Nov 15, 2011
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The problem is that the 4 freedoms of the single market are indivisible and if you want the good bits you have to accept freedom of movement and this Government will never accept that. You can see that playing out in N Ireland where that entitled dimwit Frost thinks he can ignore Brexit when it suits but the people of NI can still retain the benefits of the single market. NI are now increasingly ignoring GB and a united Ireland gets closer every day, and if Frost thinks the solution is invoking Article 16 then things are going to end very very badly.

Norway and Switzerland (which Farage suggested we could be like), are outside the EU but as part of EFTA have to accept the rules and freedom of movement. That seems to work for them as smaller countries but for the UK as a major economy wouldn't we want to be setting the rules? Thatcher was the architect of the single market , it was constructed to suit us.

The Government's position now of blaming businesses for not planning after telling them they had nothing to plan for "There will be no downsides only considerable upsides" will probably work with enough people to kick the can down the road. How much worse will peoples' lives have to get before they say, enough. I don't know.
 
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