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Willis88

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I just don't understand the constant "why don't we..." statements.

The problem is practicality and funds. If we were to knock the whole thing down and start again it would cost more than double what the current project is costing.

Our hands are tied by our means. Brent and Hallett knew that to completely rebuild it would put unnecessary strain on the club's funds and we would be in an even worse position financially to be able to support the team and there would be little to no additional benefit to it.

We could add a few hundred more seats, but surely 19k at the moment is enough? The last times we've sold out have been one-offs (play offs/Liverpool), should we overload ourselves with seats, maintenance etc for those one offs?

Take a look at the franchise, they have full tiers of seats that only get used once in a blue moon.

Look at it this way, if we were constantly selling out of tickets and have a waiting list for season tickets years long then we should be complaining we aren't going further. But we don't so why saddle the club with more debt just because it would make it look nice?
 
Jul 6, 2005
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Willis88":1t12j2tc said:
I just don't understand the constant "why don't we..." statements.

The problem is practicality and funds. If we were to knock the whole thing down and start again it would cost more than double what the current project is costing.

Our hands are tied by our means. Brent and Hallett knew that to completely rebuild it would put unnecessary strain on the club's funds and we would be in an even worse position financially to be able to support the team and there would be little to no additional benefit to it.

We could add a few hundred more seats, but surely 19k at the moment is enough? The last times we've sold out have been one-offs (play offs/Liverpool), should we overload ourselves with seats, maintenance etc for those one offs?

Take a look at the franchise, they have full tiers of seats that only get used once in a blue moon.

Look at it this way, if we were constantly selling out of tickets and have a waiting list for season tickets years long then we should be complaining we aren't going further. But we don't so why saddle the club with more debt just because it would make it look nice?
Not sure if you are referring to my comments but if you are;

I was fully in favour of rebuilding the existing Grandstand, not knocking it down and starting again. I wanted to see the Leitch-designed stand completed and for it to become a bit of a show piece but that’s not going to be the case unfortunately. I realise that not many other Argyle fans agree with me.

I also stated that a 19000 capacity would be more than ample well into the foreseeable future, even with a very unlikely promotion back into the Championship. But if you are talking about only providing seats for what is actually required, why even bother with the Grandstand redevelopment? The 3 sides of the horseshoe hold 12600 and that is perfectly ample. Don’t get sucked into the unsupported and fanciful thinking that the new facilities are going to transform our finances.

Although it will never happen, even if we reached the heady heights of the Premiership we would only need a maximum of a 26-28000 capacity stadium and that would be to cater for the large away followings.
 

Biggs

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demportdave":zyqj0579 said:
Can you show me any modern stadium in the world that has a big screen 3 parts of the way down one side (thus further restricting the view from the Grandstand) and as for you suggestion of an “attractive mural”, this is Home Park not Hilda Ogden’s front room.

I would like to see big screens at HP but they should be positioned in the corners or above the goals. Your lack of appreciation and understanding of symmetry is truly shocking.

Michael Dunford told me last Thursday night that adding the missing section to the Grandstand would have cost between £500-600 thousand. A couple of decent large screens would easily cost at least half of that and probably more.

As for Phase 2, I will say it again for your benefit at least, it’s not going to happen because we will never be able to afford it and we won’t need another 5-6000 seats. It’s no more than a pipe dream and a sop to fans like your good self who actually think it will happen.

As the last stand ever Leitch-designed stand in the football League we could have really made something of it but instead, it will just look like an old but incomplete stand with a new roof and a frontage plastered in advertising.

I'm struggling to get on board with any of your points, and 'your lack of appreciation and understanding of symmetry is truly shocking' has to be one of the strangest and most unnecessary insults I've read :lol:. Why is a mural such a bad idea, when they've added so much character to the rest of the ground, and would make more sense now the cameras are pointing at it. And a big screen there would be fine, I don't see how a modern thin screen creates any further obstruction.

Perhaps you just have OCD. It's a pretty small area, and really is barely noticeable in Phase 2, and not exactly glaring in Phase 1 below either.

Screen%20Shot%202018-06-22%20at%2010.47.38_zpsnckjvb3n.png


Also, Phase 2 is the final plan drawn up by architects and engineers, whether you think that will happen or not. Therefore it's only fair to judge the design decisions by that plan, seeing as the concessions we're seeing in Stage 1 are purely economic.
 
Jul 6, 2005
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Bermudian Green":qa2ck2ep said:
demportdave":qa2ck2ep said:
Michael Dunford told me last Thursday night that adding the missing section to the Grandstand would have cost between £500-600 thousand.

How many seats would this have been for?
If you also include the seats that will still not be able to be used because of the restricted view, despite over £6M being spent to upgrade the Grandstand, I would estimate it would provide at least 500 more seats, maybe a bit more, which would take the capacity up to about 19000. I cannot see a scenario where we will ever need any more than that which is why I firmly believe Phase 2 will never happen, but that’s just my view.

Around 19000 would be sufficient even in the unlikely situation of Argyle becoming a top Championship club competing for promotion to the Premiership. We would only need Phase 2 - and perhaps the mythical mezzanine level around the horseshoe to take the capacity up to around 27000 - if we were to reach the Premiership. That will never happen but we could be a mid-table Championship club.

As a pragmatist, I can accept that Phase 2 and the mezzanine level will never happen because the reality is that it’s never going to be required, which is why I was so keen to at least see the Grandstand finally completed after all this time. I would have been content with that.

The Club would never admit that Phase 2 isn’t ever going to happen. They will continue the charade that it is an unspecified long-term aim and many well-meaning but naive fans will continue to believe that it is going to be built.

I’m not quite sure I accept the figures from Michael Dunford, but even if the stand could not be completed with the seating, it would have been cheaper to at least complete the roof over this area now.
 

davie nine

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demportdave":4ezimf3b said:
Bermudian Green":4ezimf3b said:
demportdave":4ezimf3b said:
Michael Dunford told me last Thursday night that adding the missing section to the Grandstand would have cost between £500-600 thousand.

How many seats would this have been for?
If you also include the seats that will still not be able to be used because of the restricted view, despite over £6M being spent to upgrade the Grandstand, I would estimate it would provide at least 500 more seats, maybe a bit more, which would take the capacity up to about 19000. I cannot see a scenario where we will ever need any more than that which is why I firmly believe Phase 2 will never happen, but that’s just my view.

Around 19000 would be sufficient even in the unlikely situation of Argyle becoming a top Championship club competing for promotion to the Premiership. We would only need Phase 2 - and perhaps the mythical mezzanine level around the horseshoe to take the capacity up to around 27000 - if we were to reach the Premiership. That will never happen but we could be a mid-table Championship club.

As a pragmatist, I can accept that Phase 2 and the mezzanine level will never happen because the reality is that it’s never going to be required, which is why I was so keen to at least see the Grandstand finally completed after all this time. I would have been content with that.

The Club would never admit that Phase 2 isn’t ever going to happen. They will continue the charade that it is an unspecified long-term aim and many well-meaning but naive fans will continue to believe that it is going to be built.

I’m not quite sure I accept the figures from Michael Dunford, but even if the stand could not be completed with the seating, it would have been cheaper to at least complete the roof over this area now.
Hi, demportdave. Welcome back. I am intrigued that, until late November, you had not posted on Pasoti for about 20 months. I missed you as I enjoyed our occasional debates.
It just seems strange that, over the period that the Grandstand has been in it’s planning and development stages you have not commented but now you seem to be criticising the fact that the corners are not being filled in. This particular issue was ‘done to death’ during the planning stage when explanations were made about the reasons why this was not included in the first phase and that there was no timescale for phase 2.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion and this is a good place to voice it but, as you now seem so concerned, it is surprising that you have just raised this at this time.
If your absence has been due to illness, I apologise.
 
Jul 6, 2005
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davie nine":1zb6x67t said:
demportdave":1zb6x67t said:
Bermudian Green":1zb6x67t said:
demportdave":1zb6x67t said:
Michael Dunford told me last Thursday night that adding the missing section to the Grandstand would have cost between £500-600 thousand.

How many seats would this have been for?
If you also include the seats that will still not be able to be used because of the restricted view, despite over £6M being spent to upgrade the Grandstand, I would estimate it would provide at least 500 more seats, maybe a bit more, which would take the capacity up to about 19000. I cannot see a scenario where we will ever need any more than that which is why I firmly believe Phase 2 will never happen, but that’s just my view.

Around 19000 would be sufficient even in the unlikely situation of Argyle becoming a top Championship club competing for promotion to the Premiership. We would only need Phase 2 - and perhaps the mythical mezzanine level around the horseshoe to take the capacity up to around 27000 - if we were to reach the Premiership. That will never happen but we could be a mid-table Championship club.

As a pragmatist, I can accept that Phase 2 and the mezzanine level will never happen because the reality is that it’s never going to be required, which is why I was so keen to at least see the Grandstand finally completed after all this time. I would have been content with that.

The Club would never admit that Phase 2 isn’t ever going to happen. They will continue the charade that it is an unspecified long-term aim and many well-meaning but naive fans will continue to believe that it is going to be built.

I’m not quite sure I accept the figures from Michael Dunford, but even if the stand could not be completed with the seating, it would have been cheaper to at least complete the roof over this area now.
Hi, demportdave. Welcome back. I am intrigued that, until late November, you had not posted on Pasoti for about 20 months. I missed you as I enjoyed our occasional debates.
It just seems strange that, over the period that the Grandstand has been in it’s planning and development stages you have not commented but now you seem to be criticising the fact that the corners are not being filled in. This particular issue was ‘done to death’ during the planning stage when explanations were made about the reasons why this was not included in the first phase and that there was no timescale for phase 2.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion and this is a good place to voice it but, as you now seem so concerned, it is surprising that you have just raised this at this time.
If your absence has been due to illness, I apologise.
Thanks for the welcome back, I know that is a genuine sentiment but I will disappear back into the ether once again after this posting.

My views on the redevelopment are irrelevant and inconsequential. I appreciate that I am very much in the minority on this particular matter as most Argyle fans are not even aware that we have a lop-sided, incomplete Grandstand.

Unfortunately, like 1 or 2 others you have not actually read my postings on this matter and have just assumed I was complaining about the corners being left; I’m not. At no time have I expressed disappointment with the corners not being filled in, in fact I have stated that I believe it will never happen because we will never actually need the extra seats.

My disappointment is that despite spending over £6M, the Grandstand will still not be complete 66 years after it was started. I would have liked to have seen it finished, as planned back in 1952, extended by about another 20 yards or so above the open steps at the Barn Park End so that we had a stand which extended the full length of the pitch.

The fact that we will have a 66-year old stand which will still not be completed (and probably never will be) despite a £6M+ re-vamp is a bit of a metaphor for Argyle.

If I really wanted to be critical, I would say that we have missed a great opportunity to prepare for the return of standing which is certainly going to come back sooner rather than later. I doubt there is any area better suited than the former Mayflower Terrace to accommodate Safe Standing and Rail Seats.

Unfortunately, when standing does come back there will be nowhere in the ground to accommodate it, apart maybe from the 2 unfinished corners?
 

Argylegames

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demportdave":2acwx7y0 said:
Unfortunately, when standing does come back there will be nowhere in the ground to accommodate it, apart maybe from the 2 unfinished corners?

Surely one or more blocks in the horseshoe could be converted? The replacement for the old terrace will not be suitable obviously, due to visibility issues for those behind, but a complete section from pitchside to back of the stand would not have that problem.
 

davie nine

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demportdave":1er03ly2 said:
davie nine":1er03ly2 said:
demportdave":1er03ly2 said:
Bermudian Green":1er03ly2 said:
demportdave":1er03ly2 said:
Michael Dunford told me last Thursday night that adding the missing section to the Grandstand would have cost between £500-600 thousand.

How many seats would this have been for?
If you also include the seats that will still not be able to be used because of the restricted view, despite over £6M being spent to upgrade the Grandstand, I would estimate it would provide at least 500 more seats, maybe a bit more, which would take the capacity up to about 19000. I cannot see a scenario where we will ever need any more than that which is why I firmly believe Phase 2 will never happen, but that’s just my view.

Around 19000 would be sufficient even in the unlikely situation of Argyle becoming a top Championship club competing for promotion to the Premiership. We would only need Phase 2 - and perhaps the mythical mezzanine level around the horseshoe to take the capacity up to around 27000 - if we were to reach the Premiership. That will never happen but we could be a mid-table Championship club.

As a pragmatist, I can accept that Phase 2 and the mezzanine level will never happen because the reality is that it’s never going to be required, which is why I was so keen to at least see the Grandstand finally completed after all this time. I would have been content with that.

The Club would never admit that Phase 2 isn’t ever going to happen. They will continue the charade that it is an unspecified long-term aim and many well-meaning but naive fans will continue to believe that it is going to be built.

I’m not quite sure I accept the figures from Michael Dunford, but even if the stand could not be completed with the seating, it would have been cheaper to at least complete the roof over this area now.
Hi, demportdave. Welcome back. I am intrigued that, until late November, you had not posted on Pasoti for about 20 months. I missed you as I enjoyed our occasional debates.
It just seems strange that, over the period that the Grandstand has been in it’s planning and development stages you have not commented but now you seem to be criticising the fact that the corners are not being filled in. This particular issue was ‘done to death’ during the planning stage when explanations were made about the reasons why this was not included in the first phase and that there was no timescale for phase 2.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion and this is a good place to voice it but, as you now seem so concerned, it is surprising that you have just raised this at this time.
If your absence has been due to illness, I apologise.
Thanks for the welcome back, I know that is a genuine sentiment but I will disappear back into the ether once again after this posting.

My views on the redevelopment are irrelevant and inconsequential. I appreciate that I am very much in the minority on this particular matter as most Argyle fans are not even aware that we have a lop-sided, incomplete Grandstand.

Unfortunately, like 1 or 2 others you have not actually read my postings on this matter and have just assumed I was complaining about the corners being left; I’m not. At no time have I expressed disappointment with the corners not being filled in, in fact I have stated that I believe it will never happen because we will never actually need the extra seats.

My disappointment is that despite spending over £6M, the Grandstand will still not be complete 66 years after it was started. I would have liked to have seen it finished, as planned back in 1952, extended by about another 20 yards or so above the open steps at the Barn Park End so that we had a stand which extended the full length of the pitch.

The fact that we will have a 66-year old stand which will still not be completed (and probably never will be) despite a £6M+ re-vamp is a bit of a metaphor for Argyle.

If I really wanted to be critical, I would say that we have missed a great opportunity to prepare for the return of standing which is certainly going to come back sooner rather than later. I doubt there is any area better suited than the former Mayflower Terrace to accommodate Safe Standing and Rail Seats.

Unfortunately, when standing does come back there will be nowhere in the ground to accommodate it, apart maybe from the 2 unfinished corners?
Thanks for your response and your acknowledgement that this was, indeed, a genuine sentiment, Dave. In fact, I did ask on a couple of occasions if anyone knew why you had stopped posting. One occasion was about a month after you stopped and the other was about a year later.

You may be right that I did not study your criticisms in detail. I have no knowledge of the plans for the original Grandstand in 1952 as I was only 5 years old at the time but I doubt that many projects are planned to ensure that the intentions of 66 years ago are still of great importance today and, as you have stated, you are probably very much in the minority with your views.
I was interested to note that you were at the Fans' Forum and that it was you who asked Michael Dunford the question about the 'missing section of the Grandstand'. I did glance around to see who was asking the question but I didn't realise that it was 'demportdave'.

Anyhow, I am pleased (or have assumed) that your absence from Pasoti was not health related and I am sure that your contributions would be appreciated if you changed your mind about 'disappearing back into the ether'.