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6 EFL sides make no fly pledge

Jan 9, 2023
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The problem is it would require collective action taken by many individuals not just on a local scale but on a global scale. The fact of the matter is it requires immediate, drastic multilateral action to change our current course, and it's never going to happen for a number of reasons:

1) Imperial hangover

Bear with me here. But there is a reason countries like India are aligning with China and Russia. They believe it is THEIR time and any climate agreement is just confetti to them. In China no amount of civilian unrest is going to change their course, in fact the only thing that might is a catastrophic economic collapse and then we have other problems. Brazil, among others, have already shown flagrant disregard for the environment and razed most of their natural resources. They may stop when they run out and catastrophe looms, but that is not likely to be in time to help. and then there is Africa. How are we supposed to persuade African countries that having had their growth stymied and their countries ravished by imperial powers could they now stop using quite so many resources thank you very much? That said, Africa has other problems. And I haven't even mentioned the disruptive impact of the various serious conflicts occuring at present. Whilst they dominate the news cycle, anything else isn't. Well apart from the football.

2) Capitalism

This sounds very left wing, but the truth is this is capitalism's fault. The reason is modern capitalism measures its success in growth of GDP. In other words, if people aren't consuming more, spending more, using more resources, the economy is seen to be failing. You don't need to be a mathematician to see how this is not commesurate with fighting climate change. Let's create an extremely unlikely hypothetical situation where we go all Icelandic and decide a growth based economic model isn't a great idea (I mean it obviously isn't but that's another story). How is a wealthy career politician on a 5 year electoral cycle going to sell that? Yeah we have to stop global warming but you have to stop eating meat more than about once a week, give up your car (And I mean give up, not switch to EV which makes next to no difference), stop buying stuff, etc. There is already an 'alt-right' revolt about the relatively sensible concept of 15 minute cities or whatever it was. And in America, where the attitude of about half the population is very much of the frack everyone and everything ilk and the electoral cycle is ever more fraught, only a major catastrophe is ever going to lead to a radical change. America was literally ON FIRE this year and nothing changes, and that's with a Democrat in charge. Don't hold your breath.

3) Newtonian Physics

The answer is not new technology, clean energy, whatever. You can't just magic energy from nowhere. There will always be consequences - maybe not immediate, maybe they can be put off, but for every action etc etc.. it's the great myth to be honest. We just simply can't go on living as we are, the planet cannot sustain it, there is no magic wand. We need to reduce the population, use less stuff per head, travel less and so forth. We need everybody else in THE WHOLE WORLD to be on board with this as well. On a scale of 1 to 1 million, how likely to we think this really is?

I love the optimism, but sorting your plastics from your paper and driving a Volkswagen UP isn't going to cut it. Fair play to anyone who thinks they are saving the world by doing this but they can't. Not unless they and everyone else in the world stops going to restaurants, buying clothes all the time, having multiple vehicles /tvs/computers in their household, buying random tat, traveling long distances, driving to the supermarket/DIY/garden centre every other day, commuting to work/the school run, going abroad on holiday etcetcetc. Take down your christmas tree, don't wrap any presents or buy any decorations. In fact give simple home-made gifts, don't order anything online (having it shipped halfway across the country - can you imagine the impact that must have every year?). Then explain that to the kids. Along with the reason they can't have that new bike/console/trainers/mobile they are basically told by social media they can't live without. Forget Christmas dinner or do it in a huge group and eat less of everything. You think enough people will be on board with that? Hell no. I'm not sure I am. I'm not sure anyone is, unless they live in a tent. Until things REALLY start going pear-shaped, nothing will happen. And by then it will be too late. And even as the world burns/freeze/floods there will be a significant number of people who attribute it to some kind of climate science conspiracy and it's all down to sun spots or aliens or some other such nonsense because their tiny brains can't accept reality. Yup, briangreen, that's you.

Damn this got dark.
 
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Belfast Green

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The problem is it would require collective action taken by many individuals not just on a local scale but on a global scale. The fact of the matter is it requires immediate, drastic multilateral action to change our current course, and it's never going to happen for a number of reasons:

1) Imperial hangover

Bear with me here. But there is a reason countries like India are aligning with China and Russia. They believe it is THEIR time and any climate agreement is just confetti to them. In China no amount of civilian unrest is going to change their course, in fact the only thing that might is a catastrophic economic collapse and then we have other problems. Brazil, among others, have already shown flagrant disregard for the environment and razed most of their natural resources. They may stop when they run out and catastrophe looms, but that is not likely to be in time to help. and then there is Africa. How are we supposed to persuade African countries that having had their growth stymied and their countries ravished by imperial powers could they now stop using quite so many resources thank you very much? That said, Africa has other problems. And I haven't even mentioned the disruptive impact of the various serious conflicts occuring at present. Whilst they dominate the news cycle, anything else isn't. Well apart from the football.

2) Capitalism

This sounds very left wing, but the truth is this is capitalism's fault. The reason is modern capitalism measures its success in growth of GDP. In other words, if people aren't consuming more, spending more, using more resources, the economy is seen to be failing. You don't need to be a mathematician to see how this is not commesurate with fighting climate change. Let's create an extremely unlikely hypothetical situation where we go all Icelandic and decide a growth based economic model isn't a great idea (I mean it obviously isn't but that's another story). How is a wealthy career politician on a 5 year electoral cycle going to sell that? Yeah we have to stop global warming but you have to stop eating meat more than about once a week, give up your car (And I mean give up, not switch to EV which makes next to no difference), stop buying stuff, etc. There is already an 'alt-right' revolt about the relatively sensible concept of 15 minute cities or whatever it was. And in America, where the attitude of about half the population is very much of the frack everyone and everything ilk and the electoral cycle is ever more fraught, only a major catastrophe is ever going to lead to a radical change. America was literally ON FIRE this year and nothing changes, and that's with a Democrat in charge. Don't hold your breath.

3) Newtonian Physics

The answer is not new technology, clean energy, whatever. You can't just magic energy from nowhere. There will always be consequences - maybe not immediate, maybe they can be put off, but for every action etc etc.. it's the great myth to be honest. We just simply can't go on living as we are, the planet cannot sustain it, there is no magic wand. We need to reduce the population, use less stuff per head, travel less and so forth. We need everybody else in THE WHOLE WORLD to be on board with this as well. On a scale of 1 to 1 million, how likely to we think this really is?

I love the optimism, but sorting your plastics from your paper and driving a Volkswagen UP isn't going to cut it. Fair play to anyone who thinks they are saving the world by doing this but they can't. Not unless they and everyone else in the world stops going to restaurants, buying clothes all the time, having multiple vehicles /tvs/computers in their household, buying random tat, traveling long distances, driving to the supermarket/DIY/garden centre every other day, commuting to work/the school run, going abroad on holiday etcetcetc. Take down your christmas tree, don't wrap any presents or buy any decorations. In fact give simple home-made gifts, don't order anything online (having it shipped halfway across the country - can you imagine the impact that must have every year?). Then explain that to the kids. Along with the reason they can't have that new bike/console/trainers/mobile they are basically told by social media they can't live without. Forget Christmas dinner or do it in a huge group and eat less of everything. You think enough people will be on board with that? Hell no. I'm not sure I am. I'm not sure anyone is, unless they live in a tent. Until things REALLY start going pear-shaped, nothing will happen. And by then it will be too late. And even as the world burns/freeze/floods there will be a significant number of people who attribute it to some kind of climate science conspiracy and it's all down to sun spots or aliens or some other such nonsense because their tiny brains can't accept reality. Yup, briangreen, that's you.

Damn this got dark.
Great write up. Worse, it is becoming clear that most of the tipping points are bumps in the road in the rear view mirror already. The human race has never been able to act collectively in the face of the greed promoted by its richest members who want yet more riches. It is not going to start now. The world will survive without us, so our imminent demise is progress.
 

GreenEden

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Sure Argyle will be pleased to miss out on the followings of Sheff Weds Leeds Boro Sunderland at Al for Millwall reading and QPR
 

robin

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Yay the opinions forum is back! The football forum that has the largest amount of climate change deniers and scientific boffs in the UK.
Where we lose the argument as say ´well that´s just your opinion man, not fact´. Even when it is usually a fact. Where anecdotal evidence is king and where the thread gets locked or deleted as it turned too political.....boo hoo.

I actually agree that more teams should fly less, but it has to start with the big boys not the Bristol Rovers of this world. It will make little difference otherwise. I also think the leagues should be regionalised but in League One and Two, not sure how that would work with relegation from the Championship but it would help the finances of the smaller teams and leave them more prepared to face life in the Championship. Or regionalise League Two and the Conference and integrate into the league pyramid.
 

justanotherfan

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The problem is it would require collective action taken by many individuals not just on a local scale but on a global scale. The fact of the matter is it requires immediate, drastic multilateral action to change our current course, and it's never going to happen for a number of reasons:

1) Imperial hangover

Bear with me here. But there is a reason countries like India are aligning with China and Russia. They believe it is THEIR time and any climate agreement is just confetti to them. In China no amount of civilian unrest is going to change their course, in fact the only thing that might is a catastrophic economic collapse and then we have other problems. Brazil, among others, have already shown flagrant disregard for the environment and razed most of their natural resources. They may stop when they run out and catastrophe looms, but that is not likely to be in time to help. and then there is Africa. How are we supposed to persuade African countries that having had their growth stymied and their countries ravished by imperial powers could they now stop using quite so many resources thank you very much? That said, Africa has other problems. And I haven't even mentioned the disruptive impact of the various serious conflicts occuring at present. Whilst they dominate the news cycle, anything else isn't. Well apart from the football.

2) Capitalism

This sounds very left wing, but the truth is this is capitalism's fault. The reason is modern capitalism measures its success in growth of GDP. In other words, if people aren't consuming more, spending more, using more resources, the economy is seen to be failing. You don't need to be a mathematician to see how this is not commesurate with fighting climate change. Let's create an extremely unlikely hypothetical situation where we go all Icelandic and decide a growth based economic model isn't a great idea (I mean it obviously isn't but that's another story). How is a wealthy career politician on a 5 year electoral cycle going to sell that? Yeah we have to stop global warming but you have to stop eating meat more than about once a week, give up your car (And I mean give up, not switch to EV which makes next to no difference), stop buying stuff, etc. There is already an 'alt-right' revolt about the relatively sensible concept of 15 minute cities or whatever it was. And in America, where the attitude of about half the population is very much of the frack everyone and everything ilk and the electoral cycle is ever more fraught, only a major catastrophe is ever going to lead to a radical change. America was literally ON FIRE this year and nothing changes, and that's with a Democrat in charge. Don't hold your breath.

3) Newtonian Physics

The answer is not new technology, clean energy, whatever. You can't just magic energy from nowhere. There will always be consequences - maybe not immediate, maybe they can be put off, but for every action etc etc.. it's the great myth to be honest. We just simply can't go on living as we are, the planet cannot sustain it, there is no magic wand. We need to reduce the population, use less stuff per head, travel less and so forth. We need everybody else in THE WHOLE WORLD to be on board with this as well. On a scale of 1 to 1 million, how likely to we think this really is?

I love the optimism, but sorting your plastics from your paper and driving a Volkswagen UP isn't going to cut it. Fair play to anyone who thinks they are saving the world by doing this but they can't. Not unless they and everyone else in the world stops going to restaurants, buying clothes all the time, having multiple vehicles /tvs/computers in their household, buying random tat, traveling long distances, driving to the supermarket/DIY/garden centre every other day, commuting to work/the school run, going abroad on holiday etcetcetc. Take down your christmas tree, don't wrap any presents or buy any decorations. In fact give simple home-made gifts, don't order anything online (having it shipped halfway across the country - can you imagine the impact that must have every year?). Then explain that to the kids. Along with the reason they can't have that new bike/console/trainers/mobile they are basically told by social media they can't live without. Forget Christmas dinner or do it in a huge group and eat less of everything. You think enough people will be on board with that? Hell no. I'm not sure I am. I'm not sure anyone is, unless they live in a tent. Until things REALLY start going pear-shaped, nothing will happen. And by then it will be too late. And even as the world burns/freeze/floods there will be a significant number of people who attribute it to some kind of climate science conspiracy and it's all down to sun spots or aliens or some other such nonsense because their tiny brains can't accept reality. Yup, briangreen, that's you.

Damn this got dark.
We`re doomed, we`re all doomed.
 
Apr 16, 2016
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Well, it's not really meant to be political on here, although everyone is chipping in on climate.... If you read Luke 21 - written 2000 yrs ago it tells you a lot about climate change, war in Palestine, anxiety , addiction blah blah and the end of the world - all in 1 chapter ! Anyone would think it could be divinely inspired or miraculous to be so insightful from such a bygone era.
According to that book, the climate extremities look like they may increase. But with mankind being as self centred as we are, we will unlikely change our ways - which, of course, the son of God would know in advance . So not flying to EFL matches ... a drop in the ocean ( and probably rooted in VS) although, as Mother Theresa said, when it was suggested she was wasting her time helping India's poor - an ocean is made up of many drops.
So there's a few ways of looking at it IMO.
 
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Jan 9, 2023
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Our oceans are made up of many drops for the time-being, at least!

There is a highly risky solution, and it's AI. If we can nail quantum computing, create an advanced AI and give it autonomy then it might be our only shot. In keeping with the rule of 3, this could end one of 3 ways:

1) The AI swiftly takes control of everything, creates lots of baby AIs and our technology exponentially advances beyond anything of which we conceive, solving all of our problems. Humans can revel in a new Utopia with their lives and futures safe in the hands of these new super-beings.

2) The super-smart AI soon realises the futility of existence, on account of lacking the regular flow of happy drugs which the animal human brain posesses. Within short order it despairs of our realm and wipes it's own super-brain clean.

3) The AI realises humans are the real problem all along, and things go very terminator 2. The planet survives. Hurray. I would suggest in this scenario someone has not really done a great job programming the AI.

I'd say 2) is the most likely. Although in this scenario, it's also possible that the AI goes full Nihilist and takes the entire rest of the universe with it. In which case the planet would not survive.

Keeping it on topic, in scenario 1) it's quite possible that the super-AI's first order of business and absolute priority in preventing catastrophic climate change is to regionalise the football leagues and limit teams flying to games. On the other hand... perhaps... not?
 
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A few indisputable facts...1. Whatever we do as a nation will make misicule (or nil) difference to CO2 emissions globally. 2. That said, this of course is virtue signalling nonsense. 3. It will be to Argyle's advantage if some serious Champ clubs sign up to this. Of course the serious 'players' have more sense.
 

Belfast Green

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A few indisputable facts...1. Whatever we do as a nation will make misicule (or nil) difference to CO2 emissions globally. 2. That said, this of course is virtue signalling nonsense. 3. It will be to Argyle's advantage if some serious Champ clubs sign up to this. Of course the serious 'players' have more sense.
“Indisputable” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 
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A few indisputable facts...1. Whatever we do as a nation will make misicule (or nil) difference to CO2 emissions globally. 2. That said, this of course is virtue signalling nonsense. 3. It will be to Argyle's advantage if some serious Champ clubs sign up to this. Of course the serious 'players' have more sense.
Agree with 1 totally. Every single person on this island could change to electric vehicles, recycle everything possible etc. etc. etc. but....with the amount of emissions that the rest of the world produce, it would achieve precisely zero difference.
 
May 17, 2012
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Great write up. Worse, it is becoming clear that most of the tipping points are bumps in the road in the rear view mirror already. The human race has never been able to act collectively in the face of the greed promoted by its richest members who want yet more riches. It is not going to start now. The world will survive without us, so our imminent demise is progress.
🥱
 

The Doctor

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In your opinion
This response is the issue.

The information being presented on this thread that you don't like is not opinion, it is scientific fact. You can't just decide whether or not you agree or disagree with facts because you don't like them or decide you don't want to believe them. If you could then why not decide some other facts are opinions and so safe for you to ignore?

Why not decide that those people who think that objects fall towards the ground because of gravity are wrong? Why not be oblivious to the fact that certain types of electromagnetic radiation will cause damage to the cells in your body and then bathe yourself in UV radiation to get a nice tan or have a full-body x-ray done every day to check that there is nothing out of place inside you? I am sure that you DO accept gravity and DO accept that EM radiation can have harmful effects on your body... if not then you might get into trouble when you try to fly or become ill with skin (or other) cancer.

Yet you refuse to accept that the fact that because the EM radiation that the Earth emits back out to space has a wavelength of about 10 micrometres (because it is a lump of material with an average surface temperature of ~15 degree Celsius) does not pass straight through the atmosphere to balance the incoming solar energy the planet absorbs but, instead, is largely absorbed by molecules of the relatively small amounts of certain gases that are present (carbon dioxide, water vapour, methane etc) and then re-radiated both out to space and back down to the surface the planet is warmer than it would otherwise be if those particular gas molecules were not present. This is a natural process - if those particular gases were not present in the atmosphere the surface temperature of the Earth would be more like -18 degrees Celsius (assuming there were still clouds - much hotter if there were no clouds) and there would be no liquid water on the planet. It's a good job for us that this so-called Greenhouse Effect does naturally occur because it has resulted in conditions favourable for life.

All of that is basic physics - fact if you like, just like gravity - and really cannot be argued with. It is then simple to show that putting more of those pesky gases into the atmosphere has the inevitable effect of warming the planet to produce climate change and it is also simple to show that the major (and increasing) reason for extra Greenhouse Gases being put into the atmosphere is human activity in the last 200 or so years linked to burning of fossil fuels.

You can close your eyes to all of this if you choose to. You can not know or understand the physics (bu in theory this can easily be changed - I am sure that if we sat down together for a couple of hours I could outline the fundamental science and explain the processes to you although I could not, of course, make you understand them if you refused to try). But you (or anyone else) cannot simply pick-and-choose which bits of basic physics you will accept and which bits you will reject as someone else's opinion. You can certainly disagree with my opinions (or anyone else's) but you cannot disagree with the well-established physics, almost all of which you almost certainly tacitly do accept as you go about your daily life.

******

As an aside, just this morning I read a passage in a book ('Finite and Infinite Games' by James P. Carse) that went as follows:

"Explanations succeed only by convincing resistant learners of their error. If you will not hear my explanations until you are suspicious of your own truths, you will not accept my explanations until you are convinced of your error."

So I have absolutely no expectation that you (or any other reader with similar opinions) will be persuaded by my posts, just a hope that maybe, just maybe, they will open the curtain and allow a tiny chink of an amazing and inspiring view to filter into the room...

(...and because I am a person who is interested in almost everything and want to widen my view to better understand everything and everyone around me)
 
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MikeD

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Boy, this thread has generated some of the longest posts I've seen in ages!

My tuppence worth. Firstly, if everyone took the view that nothing they do will make a difference there will never be real change. Just because something seems unattainable, doesn't mean it isn't worth striving for.

Secondly, on the topic of flying (and other means of transportation for that matter), the future is in finding a clean fuel. The most promising is green hydrogen (produced from renewable energy), lots of good work going on to make this viable but until then any measures to cut back on flying are a good thing.

EVs are also good, but they require a clean grid to make a difference. Something that we don't have yet here in Alberta but will have with the continued level of investment in renewables seen in the past few years.