20 years since Cloughie's passing | PASOTI
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20 years since Cloughie's passing

SurreyJanner

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I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have liked VAR - 'Do I not like that....'
 
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The article refers to his ruthlessness. I once had a neighbour who was linesman for a Forrest game. Following a clash of heads a Forrest player was knocked unconscious. His physio ran on to the pitch with nothing but an empty bucket, and while he was barely recovering the physio shouted ‘Cloughie says you’re to ****ing we’ll get up and stop whinging’. He played the rest of the game clearly in a daze, but Clough showed no mercy.
 
Nov 18, 2011
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The article refers to his ruthlessness. I once had a neighbour who was linesman for a Forrest game. Following a clash of heads a Forrest player was knocked unconscious. His physio ran on to the pitch with nothing but an empty bucket, and while he was barely recovering the physio shouted ‘Cloughie says you’re to ****ing we’ll get up and stop whinging’. He played the rest of the game clearly in a daze, but Clough showed no mercy.
The man had absolutely no sympathy when it came to injuries. I always found that a little odd given how his playing career ended.
 
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MickyD

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Dec 30, 2004
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I know he was a "ledge" and all that but I think he was an awful human being who today would be considered a coercive controller and abuser on a massive scale, whose victims were (and some still are) suffering from a form of cult-member Stockholm syndrome - and I'm comfortably old enough to remember his entire managerial career as it was happening.

"Charismatic" monsters like David Koresh, Jim Jones and a certain presidential candidate come to mind.
 
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Apr 16, 2016
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I miss people like that in the game. Don't agree with Micky D's view at all. Past players speak very fondly of him.
This article shows his tender side too :


A genius ..with all that often goes with that.
 
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Argyletillidie

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I know he was a "ledge" and all that but I think he was an awful human being who today would be considered a coercive controller and abuser on a massive scale, whose victims were (and some still are) suffering from a form of cult-member Stockholm syndrome - and I'm comfortably old enough to remember his entire managerial career as it was happening.

"Charismatic" monsters like David Koresh, Jim Jones and a certain presidential candidate come to mind.
Unfortunately you're absolutely right. He wasn't a very nice person.

However, he was a great football manager for his time.
 

memory man

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Nov 28, 2011
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I know he was a "ledge" and all that but I think he was an awful human being who today would be considered a coercive controller and abuser on a massive scale, whose victims were (and some still are) suffering from a form of cult-member Stockholm syndrome - and I'm comfortably old enough to remember his entire managerial career as it was happening.

"Charismatic" monsters like David Koresh, Jim Jones and a certain presidential candidate come to mind.
I first came across him, one to one, in October1960 in the old Co-op shop on Royal Parade. They had a sports shop on the lower ground floor and Clough appeared there on the morning of a match against Argyle. Players were still only allowed to earn a maximum of ÂŁ20 per week so they augmented their income with advertising and personal appearances. There was a stage set up at one end and Clough was flanked by a player called Ray Yeoman and a former Argyle player, Ronnie Waldock. The event had attracted a lot of lads with autograph books, me included.

We all patiently queued as Clough and company took their places. One by one we filed forward to get our books signed. I had worked hard the previous evening and on the left side of a double foolscap page I had pictures of various Boro players, the biggest being one of Clough. On the right hand page I had drawn a grid in the 2-3-5 formation. I (politely) asked him to sign the picture "Best wishes" and over the number 9 on the grid. The response was a curt "One and one only sonny". I opted for the grid. I returned to the back of the queue and as I presented my book I got the same response - "I told you one and one only".

Me and another lad, I think he was called Skinner and he lived in Wake Street near the sorting office, swapped books. It was to no avail as he got a blast from Clough too. I left the Co-op and went to the ground. As he got off the coach I was there again but nothing doing. He looked at the book, looked at me and put the pen back on the book. After the game I go to the Grand Hotel. Even though they had flown down, Middlesbrough needed a two night stay. I can only assume that our airport was not capable of supporting night landing and take-off.

After what seemed an eternity, Clough emerged with a number of other players. They turned immediately right, through the pillars and to the Hoe, then left towards Smeaton's Tower, headed for the Barbican. He was walking with Kenneth Thomson, their centre half (who would later go to jail for his part in the match-fixing scandal orchestrated by our former player Jimmy Gauld). I asked Clough again to sign the picture but he just kept saying the same 'one and one only' line. The goalkeeper (Appelby?) was in a group close by and I heard him say "Come on Brian, just sign the lad's book." But Clough was having none of it.

Suddenly he stopped and, in that uncompromising way he had, said "Did your father not teach you any manners son?" I thought quickly and responded: "He died when I was seven, Mr Clough. So I cannot really remember much about him." That was quite deliberate from me. I thought that I had delivered the metaphorical arrow through the heart and that even this horrible man would relent - but he didn't. And his response - "Well that will account for your behaviour then." I honestly don't remember being rude. Determined, persistent, perhaps to the point of annoyance, but I was never rude or impolite.

So years later when Clough was presenting Trevor Francis with an award, live on TV, I was not at all surprised when he ridiculed Francis about having his hands in his pockets. I wasn't at all surprised when he interjected from the audience when Parkinson was interviewing Muhamad Ali, thinking he could verbally grapple with one of the fastest wits on the planet. When he mounted the live-on-TV attack on Alf Ramsey for sitting with the England doctor I was not surprised.

Fast forward 31 years from that night on Plymouth Hoe and I am back in Plymouth visiting my mother, who was terminally ill and had been given ten days to live. We talked about all manner of things in the week we spent together. After she was widowed she had developed a real fear of anyone being critical of my behaviour. She did not want anyone thinking that being without a father was a cause of poor behaviour on my part. And all those years later, with a few days of her life left, she recalled the incident with, in her words, "that beastly man Clough". She recalled how down she felt, five years on from my Dad's death, that someone should link the two events.

So MickyD, I am firmly in your camp. Your "Awful human being" sums him up for me. I was astounded how long my Mum had carried that event with her. I didn't like what happened at the time, but that was nothing to the anger I felt that night in Derriford 31 years later, that she had been horrified that I may have let her down in public.
 
Apr 16, 2016
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I first came across him, one to one, in October1960 in the old Co-op shop on Royal Parade. They had a sports shop on the lower ground floor and Clough appeared there on the morning of a match against Argyle. Players were still only allowed to earn a maximum of ÂŁ20 per week so they augmented their income with advertising and personal appearances. There was a stage set up at one end and Clough was flanked by a player called Ray Yeoman and a former Argyle player, Ronnie Waldock. The event had attracted a lot of lads with autograph books, me included.

We all patiently queued as Clough and company took their places. One by one we filed forward to get our books signed. I had worked hard the previous evening and on the left side of a double foolscap page I had pictures of various Boro players, the biggest being one of Clough. On the right hand page I had drawn a grid in the 2-3-5 formation. I (politely) asked him to sign the picture "Best wishes" and over the number 9 on the grid. The response was a curt "One and one only sonny". I opted for the grid. I returned to the back of the queue and as I presented my book I got the same response - "I told you one and one only".

Me and another lad, I think he was called Skinner and he lived in Wake Street near the sorting office, swapped books. It was to no avail as he got a blast from Clough too. I left the Co-op and went to the ground. As he got off the coach I was there again but nothing doing. He looked at the book, looked at me and put the pen back on the book. After the game I go to the Grand Hotel. Even though they had flown down, Middlesbrough needed a two night stay. I can only assume that our airport was not capable of supporting night landing and take-off.

After what seemed an eternity, Clough emerged with a number of other players. They turned immediately right, through the pillars and to the Hoe, then left towards Smeaton's Tower, headed for the Barbican. He was walking with Kenneth Thomson, their centre half (who would later go to jail for his part in the match-fixing scandal orchestrated by our former player Jimmy Gauld). I asked Clough again to sign the picture but he just kept saying the same 'one and one only' line. The goalkeeper (Appelby?) was in a group close by and I heard him say "Come on Brian, just sign the lad's book." But Clough was having none of it.

Suddenly he stopped and, in that uncompromising way he had, said "Did your father not teach you any manners son?" I thought quickly and responded: "He died when I was seven, Mr Clough. So I cannot really remember much about him." That was quite deliberate from me. I thought that I had delivered the metaphorical arrow through the heart and that even this horrible man would relent - but he didn't. And his response - "Well that will account for your behaviour then." I honestly don't remember being rude. Determined, persistent, perhaps to the point of annoyance, but I was never rude or impolite.

So years later when Clough was presenting Trevor Francis with an award, live on TV, I was not at all surprised when he ridiculed Francis about having his hands in his pockets. I wasn't at all surprised when he interjected from the audience when Parkinson was interviewing Muhamad Ali, thinking he could verbally grapple with one of the fastest wits on the planet. When he mounted the live-on-TV attack on Alf Ramsey for sitting with the England doctor I was not surprised.

Fast forward 31 years from that night on Plymouth Hoe and I am back in Plymouth visiting my mother, who was terminally ill and had been given ten days to live. We talked about all manner of things in the week we spent together. After she was widowed she had developed a real fear of anyone being critical of my behaviour. She did not want anyone thinking that being without a father was a cause of poor behaviour on my part. And all those years later, with a few days of her life left, she recalled the incident with, in her words, "that beastly man Clough". She recalled how down she felt, five years on from my Dad's death, that someone should link the two events.

So MickyD, I am firmly in your camp. Your "Awful human being" sums him up for me. I was astounded how long my Mum had carried that event with her. I didn't like what happened at the time, but that was nothing to the anger I felt that night in Derriford 31 years later, that she had been horrified that I may have let her down in public.
Sorry I'm slightly confused by the timescale here MM and not insensitive to your losses , but did your father die when you were seven or did you lie to Mr Clough?
 
Apr 16, 2016
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I'm generally not a big fan of people of people being badly spoken of when they are dead and can't defend themselves. Obviously there are parameters and sometimes one's really bad behaviour catches up with them after death eg Fayed.
But with Clough surely there has to be a balance. Past players and the Guardian article I posted above are some of the people who knew him best. Then there is his son, Nigel, brought up to be a very well mannered young man.
To liken him above with 'a certain presidential candidate' is puerile and absurd. Cloughie was old school Labour, when the party was working class. He has more in common with the ' Beast of Bolsover' the dear old Dennis Skinner, who even in his old age has been singing songs to the frail and elderley in the old age homes of his community - a community that he always loved and served, despite his fierce nature at Westminster.
To me, although not saints - who is ? - these men reflect their less entitled upbringings and we could learn a lot from them today. Trouble is no one would listen.
 

memory man

✨Pasoti Donor✨
Nov 28, 2011
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Sorry I'm slightly confused by the timescale here MM and not insensitive to your losses , but did your father die when you were seven or did you lie to Mr Clough?
He died when I was 7 - 1955. The Clough encounter was October 1960. My mother died in late 1991.
 
Oct 5, 2021
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‘Be Good, Love Brian’ is a great read/listen. He may have had questionable traits, but he also had some admirable ones. That story justifying the latter!
 
Oct 31, 2015
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wow 20 years😳. The best manager England never had.

There some outstanding stories from ex players on you tube and they all liked working for him.

Look up Mark Crosskeys stories and Dean Saunders. They are hilarious 🤣🤣🤣🤣