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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:27 am 
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The issue we have with the "English Mentality" is supporters not being able to admit that on this occasion, we were outclassed by a better opponent. Some of the criticism of both Southgate and the players is border line embarrassing on this post.

We went into the tournament with very, very little expectation and we have left having equalled our second best finish EVER. Yeah, Southgate and the players may have made a few mistakes along the way but to call Southgate a Yes man is utter sh1te. The bloke has changed the complete culture of the English National team to which they are both respected by the public and the media alike.

Croatia changed tact at half time, pushed 15 yards higher up the pitch and pressed our centre halfs to the point where we started hitting hopeful long balls. In hindsight, Southgate may have brought an extra man on in the middle to give a second option other than Henderson but he didn't. He stuck with the tactics which saw his side excel.

Hopefully this is the start of something positive and new. I have every confidence that with Southgate in control. England will become a respectful footballing nation once again.


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:03 pm 
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There is no English Mentality issue.

There is an England Experience issue.

The squad had very in the way of personnel with real big, later stage, tournament.
Similarly, notably the (slight) error for the winning goal was that of a player (Stones), who is a bit part player for his domestic team.
This has been picked up on another thread, but England don't just have to play against another XI, they have to struggle against a domestic league that provides scant opportunity for young English players to cut their teeth in high-level football. A number of last night's players had spent time out on loan at lower league teams whilst their parent clubs employ an import in their position. Some of them have had arduous pathways back into top flight football after being previously discarded. The positive is that people from around the nation identified with the players more, the negative is that they are several stages behind their opponents who learn their trade in league (most obviously our own) and European competition against the best.
The 90s and the advent of Sky, pumping their glamorous product into houses across the country almost incessantly reduced the need to wait 4 years for a chance of football glory. It means legions of armchair supporters who can watch their 'adopted' team almost continually without every having to brave Merseyside or Moss Side. They can bask in the neon glory of their superstars on weekly basis - who needs England every 4 years when you can watch the Gooners put 4 past Stoke or Swansea or West Brom? These glory-hunters (there is no other term) fund Sky, who fund the Premier league teams and that money has attracted the wealthiest of the wealthy to further bask in their own glory and further expand the already bloated transfer kitties of the top tier.
And because their 'consumers' demand to see their team sweep up all silverware in their wake so that they have bragging rights at the local these clubs are under pressure to fill their team photos with the very best, ready made, winners. This means a constant European merry-go round of players. And whilst this includes the brightest domestic prospects being hoovered up by the top clubs, unless Joe Bloggs from Bridlington makes an instant, heroic success in his 3 minute Carabo Cup outing, he'll be farmed out top the likes of Plymouth Argyle to play against the trundling meathead journeymen hoofers of the lower divisions.
Take The Guardian's transfer round-up today: https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... dy-chelsea - expect to see the potential future England players phased out even more this season.
I'd bet a hefty wedge that the reaction from plastics around the country when two 'non-prem' players scored against England last night was an immediate 'when are my adopted team bidding for him?!'

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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:21 pm 
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There in proves my point. Liked by the media and the public. Is that important? Surely you appoint the "best man" for the job, with the best knowledge and tactical acumen.

As stated that's not Gareth's fault but he shouldn't be close to the England job.

We weren't outclassed by Croatia, far from it, we were out-thought tactically and then resorted to stereo-typical English teams of yesteryear by suddenly hoofing it 70 yards down field and hoping. I dont think its crass, mis-guided or embarrassing to expect more from my national team and its management when they are paid TOP dollar.

We will now gloss over all the faults there are with English football for the next decade and bask in the fact we got to a World Cup Semi Final for the next decade.

I hope i'm very wrong, but dont expect to be.


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:33 pm 
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One more for 'inexperience v experience' :thumbup:

When it mattered, Croatia could call on the two engine rooms of the two best football sides in the world... Rakitic for Barca, and Modric for Real. Add in Mandzukic with several Champions League finals for Bayern and Juventus, Vrsaljko for Atletico Madrid, quality in Perisic and Brozovic, and they just had too much know-how.

We're on the right track though, and Southgate IS the right man for England because he knows the setup and vision that the FA now have. What I'd now like to see is us bring those players (central midfielders especially) that we're lacking into the setup, almost regardless of their club form and if they're getting into Premier League sides.

Start bringing through those youth World Cup winners like Lewis Cook, Phil Foden and Jayden Sancho, and treat this England team like a club side, which is what I think Southgate has done and will continue to do.


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:21 am
up_the_line wrote:
There is no English Mentality issue.

There is an England Experience issue.

The squad had very in the way of personnel with real big, later stage, tournament.
Similarly, notably the (slight) error for the winning goal was that of a player (Stones), who is a bit part player for his domestic team.
This has been picked up on another thread, but England don't just have to play against another XI, they have to struggle against a domestic league that provides scant opportunity for young English players to cut their teeth in high-level football. A number of last night's players had spent time out on loan at lower league teams whilst their parent clubs employ an import in their position. Some of them have had arduous pathways back into top flight football after being previously discarded. The positive is that people from around the nation identified with the players more, the negative is that they are several stages behind their opponents who learn their trade in league (most obviously our own) and European competition against the best.
The 90s and the advent of Sky, pumping their glamorous product into houses across the country almost incessantly reduced the need to wait 4 years for a chance of football glory. It means legions of armchair supporters who can watch their 'adopted' team almost continually without every having to brave Merseyside or Moss Side. They can bask in the neon glory of their superstars on weekly basis - who needs England every 4 years when you can watch the Gooners put 4 past Stoke or Swansea or West Brom? These glory-hunters (there is no other term) fund Sky, who fund the Premier league teams and that money has attracted the wealthiest of the wealthy to further bask in their own glory and further expand the already bloated transfer kitties of the top tier.
And because their 'consumers' demand to see their team sweep up all silverware in their wake so that they have bragging rights at the local these clubs are under pressure to fill their team photos with the very best, ready made, winners. This means a constant European merry-go round of players. And whilst this includes the brightest domestic prospects being hoovered up by the top clubs, unless Joe Bloggs from Bridlington makes an instant, heroic success in his 3 minute Carabo Cup outing, he'll be farmed out top the likes of Plymouth Argyle to play against the trundling meathead journeymen hoofers of the lower divisions.
Take The Guardian's transfer round-up today: https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... dy-chelsea - expect to see the potential future England players phased out even more this season.
I'd bet a hefty wedge that the reaction from plastics around the country when two 'non-prem' players scored against England last night was an immediate 'when are my adopted team bidding for him?!'

You don't have to "adopt" a team to love the Premier League. Every week of the season we are served up a feast of top quality football featuring the best players in the world. What's not to like about it?
I think the Premier League and the Champions League are far more important than a once every four years tournament in which we have failed dismally since it's inception; apart from three notable exceptions (1966, 1990 and this year)


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:06 pm 
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The World Cup by definition is more special than the Premier League and Champions League.

There's really nothing quite like it, and this tournament has been magical at times.


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:43 pm 
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I dont see it as a mentality issue for the players. Maybe for the press/media it is though.
For them to now call them heroes is a joke imho.
Sporting heroes win things. Heroes save lives like those cave divers did.
So they aint no heroes to me. They gave there all during the tourny and i respect them all for doing just that.
Bigging up this so called southgate eng footballing revolution as well. I just dont get it.
We may well have reached a WC semi for the first time in 28 years but no way was it through us
becoming some new kinda brasil. It was through a very kind draw and an exceptional threat from set pieces which i
do credit him for.
I am more disappointed than proud tbh as i dont believe we did ourselves justice in this tourny and especially this big game at the end.
And i put that partly down to gareth southgate.
The guy used this rigid 532 with boro for 3 seasons in the premiershite. He won one league cup with it tbf.
He took over the boro job from steve maclaren when he took the eng role and finished mid table in his first season.
2nd season in the bottom 3 nearly all the way and then just survived. Following season relegated.
Next season sacked early. Thats his main credentials.
Whenever i watched his teams play they were pedestrian and boring to watch even when winning.
Somehow he got the eng u23 job. Former eng players seem to get picked for eng coaching roles whatever it seems.
However, he did do well in qualifying us for the euro u23 finals in 2015 but then finished bottom of the group stage.
I witnessed 2 of those games and it was the same old crap. Most of that team is now part of our national
team too(kane, lingard etc). One of the reasons no doubt he was given the top job.
To be fair i thought he had changed for the better with the national side when he carried on with the 4231 that big sam
had begun the WC campaign with. He then did make a switch to 3421 which enabled him to go with his preferred 3CBs and WBs.
We then qualified unbeaten along with some excellent friendly performances. Home draws with italy, germany, brasil
using very inexperienced players at times and followed that with a fairly recent good away win in holland.
All the while whilst playing an attractive fluid style of football out from the back which the 3421 encourages.
But he then abandons all that for the finals and goes back to this rigid and boring 532 again. I just dont get it.
He also shoe horns players into unaccustomed roles just to make this damn useless formation work.
Walker at CB(WB). Young at WB(winger). Ali and lingard as box to boxers (no 10s). Sterling as a striker
which he most certainly aint. His only positional/ tactical change during games seemed to be for kane to come
deeper and head on long balls for our non stikers sterling and rashford to run onto.
Groundbreaking stuff? P and d more like.
Like i said above he has used other formations recently so hopefully he will learn and try some other stuff.
Theres plenty out there these days.
With a more fluid formation he could still lead eng to a revolution in passing football from back to front.
Thats what he talks of doing. He says he believes in passing/possession football. So do it then gareth.
It is still a very young team so plenty of time for it to develop. Hopefully some of the "foden" generation
of talent will also seep through and embelish it in years to come.
The premiershite barrier to them is a major obstacle to it though. As correctly explained by UTL
on this thread and on the other one. .
Thats why i ditched sky and am not interested in MOTD anymore.
England and argyle will do just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:51 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:20 pm
Is it so hard to accept we were not good enough? Croatia out -footballed us after half time and have four world class players. How many do we have?


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Voice_of_Reason wrote:
There in proves my point. Liked by the media and the public. Is that important? Surely you appoint the "best man" for the job, with the best knowledge and tactical acumen.

As stated that's not Gareth's fault but he shouldn't be close to the England job.

We weren't outclassed by Croatia, far from it, we were out-thought tactically and then resorted to stereo-typical English teams of yesteryear by suddenly hoofing it 70 yards down field and hoping. I dont think its crass, mis-guided or embarrassing to expect more from my national team and its management when they are paid TOP dollar.

We will now gloss over all the faults there are with English football for the next decade and bask in the fact we got to a World Cup Semi Final for the next decade.

I hope i'm very wrong, but dont expect to be.


You sound as though you feel that this current England side owe you something V.O.R.? I would be interested to see if your views now, reflect your views pre tournament. I'm just as disappointed as the next fan but the over riding emotion to come out of the last weeks has been positivity and pride.

I'm intrigued to know who you would have as a replacement to Southgate at this present time V.O.R.?

We have been down the high profile foreign manager route and have received some of the worst International football that England have produced.

A young, hungry manager, paired with a young hungry squad is exactly what this country has been calling out for in my opinion. Roll on Euro 2020


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Balham_Green wrote:
Is it so hard to accept we were not good enough? Croatia out -footballed us after half time and have four world class players. How many do we have?

Its not the defeat BG but the manner of the defeat. We didnt do ourselves justice.
We can do a lot better than this. I witnessed it in qualifying and against the world champions etc. Albeit friendlies.


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:02 pm 
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esmer wrote:
up_the_line wrote:
There is no English Mentality issue.

There is an England Experience issue.

The squad had very in the way of personnel with real big, later stage, tournament.
Similarly, notably the (slight) error for the winning goal was that of a player (Stones), who is a bit part player for his domestic team.
This has been picked up on another thread, but England don't just have to play against another XI, they have to struggle against a domestic league that provides scant opportunity for young English players to cut their teeth in high-level football. A number of last night's players had spent time out on loan at lower league teams whilst their parent clubs employ an import in their position. Some of them have had arduous pathways back into top flight football after being previously discarded. The positive is that people from around the nation identified with the players more, the negative is that they are several stages behind their opponents who learn their trade in league (most obviously our own) and European competition against the best.
The 90s and the advent of Sky, pumping their glamorous product into houses across the country almost incessantly reduced the need to wait 4 years for a chance of football glory. It means legions of armchair supporters who can watch their 'adopted' team almost continually without every having to brave Merseyside or Moss Side. They can bask in the neon glory of their superstars on weekly basis - who needs England every 4 years when you can watch the Gooners put 4 past Stoke or Swansea or West Brom? These glory-hunters (there is no other term) fund Sky, who fund the Premier league teams and that money has attracted the wealthiest of the wealthy to further bask in their own glory and further expand the already bloated transfer kitties of the top tier.
And because their 'consumers' demand to see their team sweep up all silverware in their wake so that they have bragging rights at the local these clubs are under pressure to fill their team photos with the very best, ready made, winners. This means a constant European merry-go round of players. And whilst this includes the brightest domestic prospects being hoovered up by the top clubs, unless Joe Bloggs from Bridlington makes an instant, heroic success in his 3 minute Carabo Cup outing, he'll be farmed out top the likes of Plymouth Argyle to play against the trundling meathead journeymen hoofers of the lower divisions.
Take The Guardian's transfer round-up today: https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... dy-chelsea - expect to see the potential future England players phased out even more this season.
I'd bet a hefty wedge that the reaction from plastics around the country when two 'non-prem' players scored against England last night was an immediate 'when are my adopted team bidding for him?!'

You don't have to "adopt" a team to love the Premier League. Every week of the season we are served up a feast of top quality football featuring the best players in the world. What's not to like about it?
I think the Premier League and the Champions League are far more important than a once every four years tournament in which we have failed dismally since it's inception; apart from three notable exceptions (1966, 1990 and this year)


You didn't read my post otherwise you'd have the answer. What's not to like about the 'Product league'? The fact that through the constant pursuit for customers and money the 'Product league' deprives potential future England players of a meaningful football upbringing. So many have faltered in their development after being swallowed up by the big clubs. There's not much beyond the squad that we took in the way of regular top-flight English starters - Southgate took just about the only collection of players he could assemble and, because English talent, playing regularly is at such a premium in an import swamped league he's had to put square pegs in round holes - Walker at CB, Young at LB

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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:28 pm 
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I understand what people are saying.

A number of good points made. Yes we were beaten by the better side. Yet when it came to a crunch point in this tournament we reverted back to things we have seen on many occasions from the 2nd half and beyond because we couldn’t cope with the game management of being in front in a World Cup semi final. Now you can say that is player inexperience's at this level yet what happen to being brave. If we can’t be brave now, when the level of expectations are so low then how on earth England players going to cope as expectations now rise. We were suppose to be playing a style of possession football, no matter what happened. Yet we became like the England of old. We...

1. Lost possession of the ball.
2. Sat back so deep, so because of this we became a back 5, not a back 3.
3. Let in two extraordinary soft goals for a World Cup semi final team
4. Completely lost our composure going forward.

I look at our side and think how many people were playing in the wrong position. Walker is not a CB. He was there because we don’t have the pace at the back to play a high line. Yet when it really mattered his pace never mattered because we sat back and weren’t brave enough to pass the ball.

So if our mindset, for a young England team, was revert back to “type” and play a brand of football that we have been familiar with in the past then how on earth are we going to change? Playing “hoof ball” in that second half was so disappointing. l don’t think that’s inexperience, but actually not having the mindset to cope with the situation of the game. There was no bravery on the ball. They were scared of making a mistake. And in the end they made plenty by forgoing all the things they were suppose to do in this new playing style of ours.

Haven’t we been here before? They talk about building on this. How on earth can they do that when premier league clubs don’t give English youth a chance. Our own domestic league, which was supposedly set up to create a stronger England has seen the number of English players playing top flight football decrease to such a state that effectively this current England squad of 23 picks itself.

The England football team has always been great at marketing on any successful, World or European Cup campaign. It’s always we are building up to something. Making a stronger England team for future tournaments. Yet when that moment arrives it never materialises and we are left feeling like we have been for the past 28 years before our last semi final appearance. Just constant disappointment because all that hope and potential was wasted.


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 Post subject: Re: An English Mentality Issue
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Balham_Green wrote:
Is it so hard to accept we were not good enough? Croatia out -footballed us after half time and have four world class players. How many do we have?


I agree with this. It's simple really. England were just not as good as Croatia and so they ended up beating us. It might well have been different had England scored at least one more goal when on top and creating chances in the first half but they didn't. When Croatia had their chances later in the game they scored (more of) them. Mandzukic's chance was not so very different from the first chance Kane missed except that M scored and K didn't. Neither did Kane (again and then again at least one more time) or Lingaard later on. That inefficiency/inability made all the difference.

I don't think there was any point when the players weren't trying and I think it was ability not attitude that meant they were collectively unable to turn things round in the second half once Croatia got on top.

I thought all along that the main reason England progressed so far was that they had not played particularly good teams. This is NOT to criticise the team, the management or any of their efforts AT ALL. They did the best they could and took as much advantage of the way the draw panned out as they could. It was ALMOST enough to get to the final. But, does anyone seriously think that had they topped the group they would have definitely beaten Japan in the last 16 and then beaten Brazil in the quarter-final (like Belgium did, only just in the case of beating Japan). We played Tunisia, Panama, Belgium Reserves (with our reserves), Columbia and Sweden so whilst it was only realistic to 'expect' England to get to the last 16 or quarter finals at the outset, it was entirely realistic to 'expect' them to reach the semi-final with that set of fixtures. Let's face it, they only just beat Tunisia, lost to Belgium reserves, and almost lost to Columbia.

It's not about mentality or effort or tactics etc., it's just about quality and not quite having enough of it (and, for me, experience is something that enables you to maintain and deploy quality when under pressure). I would say that far from it being an issue, the mentality of the players/team was the main thing that showed improvement from recent competitions.


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