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Jun 26, 2006
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That would be the Rochdale that managed to beat us 4-0 at home .

In the same way that finding proper ball playing centre halves , ones who are really comfortable with the ball at their feet and can play short medium and long accurate passes , It is my view that it is just as difficult finding genuine wing backs as opposed to just shoehorning a round peg into a square hole and hoping enough edges are knocked off in the process that they will work out ok . I also believe that if you are playing with wing backs I am not sure you can play either George Cooper or Danny Mayor as neither are wing backs and neither are central midfielders . However if you play 4-4-2 you can make use of both as out and out wide midfielders.
 
Mar 15, 2007
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I think there is some exaggeration on here of what is required of a ball playing centre back. We don't need a Koeman, Van Dijk, David Luiz... Yes they can all spray a 70 yard pass to the forward, which is great, but that's not the level we are demanding.

We need centre backs who can play quick passes vertically into the midfield or into the forwards feet if they come short, or are at the very least comfortable on the ball when pressed. There are plenty of these available in the lower leagues. The only other requirement is that when they do go long into the channel, the ball stays on the pitch.

Kell Watts was good enough on the ball, he was very comfortable bringing it out of Defence and did it to great effect earlier in the season. He's no superstar is he? Unfortunately he was also fairly bad at the basic aspects of defending, which means he's not the answer.

A good example is Sheffield United's central defenders. They used the overlapping centre backs to great effect up until this season. All comfortable passers and all decent on the ball. Some of them had come all the way up to the PL from League One. Basham, Egan and O'Connell... hardly big names are they?
 

demportdave

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Jul 6, 2005
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fishypilgrim":3c7sbjpg said:
That would be the Rochdale that managed to beat us 4-0 at home .

In the same way that finding proper ball playing centre halves , ones who are really comfortable with the ball at their feet and can play short medium and long accurate passes , It is my view that it is just as difficult finding genuine wing backs as opposed to just shoehorning a round peg into a square hole and hoping enough edges are knocked off in the process that they will work out ok . I also believe that if you are playing with wing backs I am not sure you can play either George Cooper or Danny Mayor as neither are wing backs and neither are central midfielders . However if you play 4-4-2 you can make use of both as out and out wide midfielders.
There might have been a time when any team beating Argyle 4-0 at HP would have been a big deal.

But not this season, with such a poorly constructed and poorly coached defense making the same basic mistakes every week, even a team who couldn't win a game at home for 5 months and were deservedly relegated to the 4th tier looked like 1970 Brazil against us.

Your comments on actual wing backs rather than make-shift wing backs further underline the case for reverting to a flat back 4.
 

davie nine

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Jan 23, 2015
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Nobby":299i0gz8 said:
I think there is some exaggeration on here of what is required of a ball playing centre back. We don't need a Koeman, Van Dijk, David Luiz... Yes they can all spray a 70 yard pass to the forward, which is great, but that's not the level we are demanding.

We need centre backs who can play quick passes vertically into the midfield or into the forwards feet if they come short, or are at the very least comfortable on the ball when pressed. There are plenty of these available in the lower leagues. The only other requirement is that when they do go long into the channel, the ball stays on the pitch.

Kell Watts was good enough on the ball, he was very comfortable bringing it out of Defence and did it to great effect earlier in the season. He's no superstar is he? Unfortunately he was also fairly bad at the basic aspects of defending, which means he's not the answer.

A good example is Sheffield United's central defenders. They used the overlapping centre backs to great effect up until this season. All comfortable passers and all decent on the ball. Some of them had come all the way up to the PL from League One. Basham, Egan and O'Connell... hardly big names are they?
I agree with most of your requirements, Nobby but, for me, the big essential is that they need to be strong and dominating in the air at both ends of the pitch. Like, most recently, Sonny Bradley.
 

demportdave

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Jul 6, 2005
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davie nine":19k56ih8 said:
Nobby":19k56ih8 said:
I think there is some exaggeration on here of what is required of a ball playing centre back. We don't need a Koeman, Van Dijk, David Luiz... Yes they can all spray a 70 yard pass to the forward, which is great, but that's not the level we are demanding.

We need centre backs who can play quick passes vertically into the midfield or into the forwards feet if they come short, or are at the very least comfortable on the ball when pressed. There are plenty of these available in the lower leagues. The only other requirement is that when they do go long into the channel, the ball stays on the pitch.

Kell Watts was good enough on the ball, he was very comfortable bringing it out of Defence and did it to great effect earlier in the season. He's no superstar is he? Unfortunately he was also fairly bad at the basic aspects of defending, which means he's not the answer.

A good example is Sheffield United's central defenders. They used the overlapping centre backs to great effect up until this season. All comfortable passers and all decent on the ball. Some of them had come all the way up to the PL from League One. Basham, Egan and O'Connell... hardly big names are they?
I agree with most of your requirements, Nobby but, for me, the big essential is that they need to be strong and dominating in the air at both ends of the pitch. Like, most recently, Sonny Bradley.
At League 1 level, strong and dominant in the air is way more important than being "comfortable on the ball". Lowe's supposed ball-playing defenders conceded 80 goals, about three-quarters of which were pretty poor defensively more so than they were good offensively.

The ideal pairing would be Coughlan as a right-footer and Bradley as a left-footer. I'd have 50p with anyone that with those 2, we wouldn't concede 80 goals and Mike Cooper would look even better behind them as well.

However, as good as they are/were as defenders who could also pass the ball to a green shirt, they would never be described as ball-players.
 

davie nine

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Jan 23, 2015
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That’s a hefty bet, Dave but I do agree that 2 similar signings with those strengths with Cooper behind them and we could become ‘Fortress Home Park’.
 
Mar 14, 2009
5,148
277
So lm watching Wolves versus Spurs. The one thing that struck me was the discussion of them being a 3ATB to now a 4ATB. I think it was Gary Neville who said it takes time to do this and Wolves have to go through some pain in regards to their system.

The reason l mention this is we ended up chopping from 3ATB to 4ATB and kept switching this in remaining games. No wonder we were as bad as were defensively.

So firstly we have to decided what exactly we are. Then secondly we need to buy players that fit those positions. George Cooper isn’t a LWB so heaven forbid we see him back in that position.

Coughlan and Bradley would be great in a back four. Put them in a back 3 where they are asked to play wider then they will have issues because of lack of pace. If you play a back 3 you need to be comfortable on the ball. You need pace to cover the gaps. Aimson is perfect example of all this. Look have assured it appeared in a back four. In a back 3 he constantly gave the ball away and positionally was more exposed.

Yes it’s important to find players that defend properly. However, if he plays 3 ATB he needs ball playing centre halves otherwise you going to constantly keep giving the ball away in our third of the pitch.

Big decisions ahead with recruitment. We need round pegs, in round holes. If Lowe goes back to 3-1-4-2 and continues to put Mayor at CM and plays George Cooper at LWB then he is recruiting players and playing them in positions that don’t benefit those players, BUT more importantly he damages the team.

This is my major worry. Not if the players we recruit will be good enough but where exactly he plays them.
 

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How about - midfielder Dennis Adeniran who has been released by Everton after spending the season on loan at Wycombe.
Aged 22 he's a defensive midfielder but can play as a conventional midfielder.
 
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demportdave":u0lzk512 said:
davie nine":u0lzk512 said:
Nobby":u0lzk512 said:
I think there is some exaggeration on here of what is required of a ball playing centre back. We don't need a Koeman, Van Dijk, David Luiz... Yes they can all spray a 70 yard pass to the forward, which is great, but that's not the level we are demanding.

We need centre backs who can play quick passes vertically into the midfield or into the forwards feet if they come short, or are at the very least comfortable on the ball when pressed. There are plenty of these available in the lower leagues. The only other requirement is that when they do go long into the channel, the ball stays on the pitch.

Kell Watts was good enough on the ball, he was very comfortable bringing it out of Defence and did it to great effect earlier in the season. He's no superstar is he? Unfortunately he was also fairly bad at the basic aspects of defending, which means he's not the answer.

A good example is Sheffield United's central defenders. They used the overlapping centre backs to great effect up until this season. All comfortable passers and all decent on the ball. Some of them had come all the way up to the PL from League One. Basham, Egan and O'Connell... hardly big names are they?
I agree with most of your requirements, Nobby but, for me, the big essential is that they need to be strong and dominating in the air at both ends of the pitch. Like, most recently, Sonny Bradley.
At League 1 level, strong and dominant in the air is way more important than being "comfortable on the ball". Lowe's supposed ball-playing defenders conceded 80 goals, about three-quarters of which were pretty poor defensively more so than they were good offensively.

The ideal pairing would be Coughlan as a right-footer and Bradley as a left-footer. I'd have 50p with anyone that with those 2, we wouldn't concede 80 goals and Mike Cooper would look even better behind them as well.

However, as good as they are/were as defenders who could also pass the ball to a green shirt, they would never be described as ball-players.

We need to set out a determined defensive structure- capable of getting a 1-0 away from home, after being outplayed ... because promotion campaigns are predicated on results such as these

If we continue to set up like the Harlem globetrotters preparing to shoot some hoops there’s going to be a lot of disquiet

Coaches of yesteryear used to say “ don’t pass across your own area”, and they said that for a reason- which was all too obvious last season ....
 
Aug 12, 2010
872
348
South Wales
Metal_Green_Mickey":ubwzyqz1 said:
If Lowe goes back to 3-1-4-2 and continues to put Mayor at CM and plays George Cooper at LWB then he is recruiting players and playing them in positions that don’t benefit those players, BUT more importantly he damages the team.

This is my major worry. Not if the players we recruit will be good enough but where exactly he plays them.

I do think ( just my hunch ) thats what Lowe will do. It feel like he has left himself a mountain to climb after last years recuitment attempt.
 

davie nine

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Jan 23, 2015
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demportdave":2mxrx74u said:
davie nine":2mxrx74u said:
Nobby":2mxrx74u said:
I think there is some exaggeration on here of what is required of a ball playing centre back. We don't need a Koeman, Van Dijk, David Luiz... Yes they can all spray a 70 yard pass to the forward, which is great, but that's not the level we are demanding.

We need centre backs who can play quick passes vertically into the midfield or into the forwards feet if they come short, or are at the very least comfortable on the ball when pressed. There are plenty of these available in the lower leagues. The only other requirement is that when they do go long into the channel, the ball stays on the pitch.

Kell Watts was good enough on the ball, he was very comfortable bringing it out of Defence and did it to great effect earlier in the season. He's no superstar is he? Unfortunately he was also fairly bad at the basic aspects of defending, which means he's not the answer.

A good example is Sheffield United's central defenders. They used the overlapping centre backs to great effect up until this season. All comfortable passers and all decent on the ball. Some of them had come all the way up to the PL from League One. Basham, Egan and O'Connell... hardly big names are they?
I agree with most of your requirements, Nobby but, for me, the big essential is that they need to be strong and dominating in the air at both ends of the pitch. Like, most recently, Sonny Bradley.
At League 1 level, strong and dominant in the air is way more important than being "comfortable on the ball". Lowe's supposed ball-playing defenders conceded 80 goals, about three-quarters of which were pretty poor defensively more so than they were good offensively.

The ideal pairing would be Coughlan as a right-footer and Bradley as a left-footer. I'd have 50p with anyone that with those 2, we wouldn't concede 80 goals and Mike Cooper would look even better behind them as well.

However, as good as they are/were as defenders who could also pass the ball to a green shirt, they would never be described as ball-players.
On further reflection, Dave; a Bradley type with Coughlan as our defensive coach would be a good shout.
 
Feb 8, 2005
4,273
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I'm pretty sure we will see three at the back next season. That is Lowe's preferred set up and I cannot see him changing especially with new defenders in place. I think he only changed to a back four to accommodate the personnel, who were not working well as a back three.

For this setup to be successful he needs a big strong centre half in the middle, who can be first to the crosses coming in from the sides, and be able to pass to the side or forward when they have the ball, as Opoku used to do.

However, he had three or four centre backs who he tried to use as left and right centre backs, and it didn't work.

As I see it, in this formation, a back three should consist of a strong centre half and two centre backs who can also play as a left or right full back (a la Sawyer) when the opposition have the ball and the wingback is caught out further up the field.

Last season we were caught out by the opposition wingers playing against the left and right centre backs who were not full backs but were centre halves who played in that position.

For example, Watts is a centre half, not a full back, he was good in the air but he struggled at times against the opposition wingmen, especially the quick ones. We cannot afford for that to happen as that is where the crosses come in, and the opportunity to create scoring opportunities lies.

The wingbacks, as the name implies, have to be good going forward as well as good defending, and needs players that can get up and down the field of play to do both jobs.

As far as I can see we need defensive players who can do two jobs. Play as centre halves AND as a full back, and wingbacks who can play as a full back AND a winger.

We certainly need greater height in the team, which is perhaps one of the reasons why Reeves has been released.

I'm not sure where George Cooper fits into this system, he is not a full back but is good going forward.

I think Lowe will have to tweak things if he is to play Cooper on the left, but I suppose that all depends on who Lowe can persuade to come to Devon.
 

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Gary Sawyer is a good example of a good left-back and a good left-sided centre-back, very comfortable in each position.
That's what we need to enable Lowe to switch between three at the back and a flat back four.
 

earl grey

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Nov 26, 2011
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Sonny Bradley available again.

If only he felt he had unfinished business
 

davie nine

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Jan 23, 2015
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RL has already said that Bradley will stay in the Championship and earn £10k per week which would be ‘out of our league’ in more ways than one.
Interesting, because many on here thought he wouldn’t be good enough for the Championship.