Turning the ship around // Part 7: The creative void | Page 5 | PASOTI
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Turning the ship around // Part 7: The creative void

May 8, 2011
5,788
794
NickSS":3fq3sddx said:
HC Green":3fq3sddx said:
I don’t believe that you start your analysis from a neutral position but are looking for stats to back up your prejudices either good or bad about individual players or the management.
I'm just going to cut the rest of that off to save this ballooning!
That's fair enough - if you believe that then there's little chance of me persuading you that I'm not.
There is probably some of that involved - none of us are entirely objective, even if we would like to be seen as such.
What I would say in response is that my opinions probably aren't entirely right. However, I have spend a long time watching back every game from the last two seasons (most of them twice, many of them - unfortunately, including, including Scunthorpe 4-0, Bristol C 5-0 and Doncaster 3-0 - more than twice) and trying to understand what works, what doesn't and - most importantly - why. I pay an awful lot of attention to detail when doing this to record the most accuracy stats possible.
My views weren't always this way. Believe it or not, until roughly December 2017, I actually supported Songo'o starting ahead of Fox in the 4-3-2-1! In this way, I do try to analyse matches fairly to determine how Argyle truly performed and why. I'm not just trying to be a downer.
In fact, I like to think they're positive. The main starting point for these articles is to consider why a side, which retained most of its lineup from last season, improved it's backups, has started so poorly. It's all framed in the context of how to get back to performing like that amazing side from last season. This isn't just a diatribe against Adams. It's meant to be a thought provoking and analytical take on the current situation.
I am, of course, liable to be wrong, but I do try to self-critique my ideas, and feedback like this is useful for informing me about opinions on my writing style and how I present my ideas, so thank you.

The main problem with your analysis is that you know the score before you do the analysis. Perhaps if you did the analysis blind without knowing the score and reading or hearing comments and reports of the game it would be regarded as being more balanced.
 
Mar 15, 2007
5,287
3,627
Plymouth
HC Green":39wj1b7q said:
NickSS":39wj1b7q said:
HC Green":39wj1b7q said:
I don’t believe that you start your analysis from a neutral position but are looking for stats to back up your prejudices either good or bad about individual players or the management.
I'm just going to cut the rest of that off to save this ballooning!
That's fair enough - if you believe that then there's little chance of me persuading you that I'm not.
There is probably some of that involved - none of us are entirely objective, even if we would like to be seen as such.
What I would say in response is that my opinions probably aren't entirely right. However, I have spend a long time watching back every game from the last two seasons (most of them twice, many of them - unfortunately, including, including Scunthorpe 4-0, Bristol C 5-0 and Doncaster 3-0 - more than twice) and trying to understand what works, what doesn't and - most importantly - why. I pay an awful lot of attention to detail when doing this to record the most accuracy stats possible.
My views weren't always this way. Believe it or not, until roughly December 2017, I actually supported Songo'o starting ahead of Fox in the 4-3-2-1! In this way, I do try to analyse matches fairly to determine how Argyle truly performed and why. I'm not just trying to be a downer.
In fact, I like to think they're positive. The main starting point for these articles is to consider why a side, which retained most of its lineup from last season, improved it's backups, has started so poorly. It's all framed in the context of how to get back to performing like that amazing side from last season. This isn't just a diatribe against Adams. It's meant to be a thought provoking and analytical take on the current situation.
I am, of course, liable to be wrong, but I do try to self-critique my ideas, and feedback like this is useful for informing me about opinions on my writing style and how I present my ideas, so thank you.

The main problem with your analysis is that you know the score before you do the analysis. Perhaps if you did the analysis blind without knowing the score and reading or hearing comments and reports of the game it would be regarded as being more balanced.

On this premise, no punditry or written analysis could ever be considered balanced after a match is concluded.
 
Jul 19, 2018
211
6
London
argyle.life
I don't really know how to respond to a suggestion like that to be frank. I admit that it's a different experience, watching it knowing the result than live, but what that does more than anything is remove the emotion of it. Those who watched Oxford live and came away feeling distraught will be more likely to remember the performance as worse because of the emotions they experienced. Similarly, those who came away from Wimbledon feeling happy will be more likely to remember the performance as better than it was because of the emotions they experienced.
By watching the game back, removed from the emotion and anticipation, with a good camera angle and the ability to re-watch the same event over and over, I think that I personally can get to a better level of understanding than had I just seen the game in person.
Apparently, Adams and the team sit down and watch games back. Would you consider this a pointless exercise therefore?
Anyhow, it's your choice if you want to read what I write, and I'm happy to sit down and discuss or debate any future performances, but if you are really of the persuasion that my writing is biased then I'm happy to just leave it here if you like?
 

JannerinCardiff

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Jul 16, 2018
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I think your analysis is based on facts, and a good read, personally I don’t question your objectivity and I’ve always thought that Fox and Sarcevic make us tick..

I just hope they both start against Burton and we’ll have a chance of winning.
 

davie nine

R.I.P
Jan 23, 2015
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Plympton
JannerinCardiff":3sgq02tg said:
I think your analysis is based on facts, and a good read, personally I don’t question your objectivity and I’ve always thought that Fox and Sarcevic make us tick..

I just hope they both start against Burton and we’ll have a chance of winning.
I agree. I believe that Nick is making genuine, honest analyses of our games and of our players.
Keep up the good work.
 
Jul 19, 2018
211
6
London
argyle.life
Thank you both, I appreciate that - though I would change it to "attempting to make a genuine...", as I can't guarantee that the analysis is free of unconscious prejudices etc.
 

IJN

Site Owner
Nov 29, 2012
9,602
23,732
Most on here love your analysis.

It’s part of being on a forum that people can grip.

Stick with it.

I’d love you guys to get more involved on here if I’m honest. It makes excellent reading.
 

JannerinCardiff

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♣️ SWAG Member
Jul 16, 2018
7,933
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Cardiff
IJN":1fmj6d9b said:
Most on here love your analysis.

It’s part of being on a forum that people can grip.

Stick with it.

I’d love you guys to get more involved on here if I’m honest. It makes excellent reading.

Spot on!
 

Forest of Dean Green

✅ Evergreen
✨Pasoti Donor✨
Mar 5, 2009
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Gloucestershire
NickSS":3iaephr2 said:
Thank you both, I appreciate that - though I would change it to "attempting to make a genuine...", as I can't guarantee that the analysis is free of unconscious prejudices etc.

This is a fan site so will be a right old mix of emotion, half remembered games, and attempts at rational analysis - many of which mediated by a few pints of heavy down the pub and personal preferences for types of player etc. I’m keen on a bit of each and your contribution of rational, evidenced based analysis appeals to that side of me.

But you won’t convince everyone. So don’t try to.

Also, there is quite a lot of research on how, even minutes after an event, people start to recall it differently and through the lens of their values and attitudes. Objectives truths about any event, not least a football match, are pretty much impossible. So the fact you care to watch games over, and have a system to code critical moments and analyse them, gives me something to read which allows me to see Argyle as if they were another side that I don’t support (almost). I find that refreshing, as most of my reaction, like others, is visceral and emotional.

In short, keep doing this brilliant work! It’s absolutely fascinating.
 

The Doctor

🏆 Callum Wright 23/24
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Sep 15, 2003
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andapoet.blog
I just like the fact that unlike pretty much EVERYONE else here, including me, you bother to lay out clear and careful arguments backed by oodles of supporting evidence. You may or may not be right about your points and your analysis may or may not be biased but it’s all a darned sight more rigorous than most.

That doesn’t mean everyone has to or will agree with your thoughts but I haven’t noticed anyone else trying to build such detailed and cogent arguments. It’s fascinating and thought-provoking writing and, for me, that last aspect is key.
 
Apr 5, 2008
1,494
292
Thanks for the reply.Do you think Adams can turn it around again like last season.

Why has he abandoned the winning formula from last season.If something is successful in life isn't it better to repeat something that was a success rather than change it.

Derek Adams is the most frustrating manager I have come across in 40 years supporting Argyle!!
 

davie nine

R.I.P
Jan 23, 2015
7,785
347
77
Plympton
Taylor, Sarcevic and Ness, along with Carey, Lameiras and Fox were crucial to that ‘winning formula’.
When 3 of those players have been out injured for much of the season to date and our defence has had major changes, that have not yet worked, it is not difficult to understand why it has not been possible to utilise the same formula that was successful in the second half of last season.
 
Apr 15, 2004
3,837
2,733
East Devon
The Doctor":3595jcro said:
I just like the fact that unlike pretty much EVERYONE else here, including me, you bother to lay out clear and careful arguments backed by oodles of supporting evidence. You may or may not be right about your points and your analysis may or may not be biased but it’s all a darned sight more rigorous than most.

That doesn’t mean everyone has to or will agree with your thoughts but I haven’t noticed anyone else trying to build such detailed and cogent arguments. It’s fascinating and thought-provoking writing and, for me, that last aspect is key.
Quite agree – Really enjoyed the articles – it’s nice to hear a calm & clearly explained tactical opinion backed with some statistical evidence even if, like all stats, should be treated with some scepticism – or at least the interpretation should be. Most of us (certainly me) like to voice our ‘gut feel’ instinctive views and that’s fine …. But NickSS’s are more in depth and give more food for thought and reflection.
 
I

I'mArgyleinDubai

Guest
I particularly enjoyed the article about our midfield problem. Nothing against Songo'o who is an extremely committed and gutsy player, but having him in midfield negatively impacts the whole team.

I was disappointed when we re-signed Songo'o in the summer, not because he isn't useful in certain moments like the article highlights, but because I was hoping we would set our heights higher in terms of the type of football we would be playing.

Fox is one of my favorite ever Argyle players, because of his football intelligence. It was absolutely no coincidence that our run last season was when we had him at the base of our midfield pulling the strings.

It sounds strange, but I was pleased to see Songo'o pick up the suspension last week to force DA out of his negative mindset of playing Songo'o as essentially a third centre back in midfield and conceding possession. I'll be watching with interest to see what type of impact it has this week against Burton.