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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Frank_Butcher wrote:
Latest YouGov poll tracker suggests 42% now think it was right to leave, 45% wrong.That's been fairly consistent in recent months.

Maybe - but there is a greater hope for the long term ..... to put it bluntly Leavers are a dying breed. Over 80% of 18 to 24 year olds want to stay in - only the over 45's want to leave and their obsession with immigration seem to be the key factor. If there were another referendum I've no doubt the young would this time come out in force and it would be a decisive win for Remain. Sooner or later sense will prevail - just how much damage is done first is the problem.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45098550

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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:12 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:30 am
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On a u-tube debate the Polish Foreign Minister was asked the question:

What would be the EU's response to a recindment of artical 50 by the UK.

answer

A big sigh of relief

There is hope yet at the end of the tunnel.

CJH


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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:45 am 

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I would take that as an indication of the pain that other countries will feel (Poland included), unless a deal is struck or extension granted. Barnier and co. can dig their heels in, but I imagine the pressure from individual countries is mounting.


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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:15 am 
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Well what a turn around. After the referendum the remain party argued that the government had to have the final say on the exit terms on us leaving. Well they won that arguement that the referendum was just the people saying they wanted to leave and not the terms. Since then they have aided and abetted the European side and made it difficult for meaningful negotiations with them just being instrangent to any suggestions. So it looks like Europe won't agree to anything, unless we agree to what they want. So if we do thanks to the remain party it has to go back to parliament, yes the out side will reject it and back it goes to negotiations and we bounce out. This is the good part though the remain party realising this now think that parliament shouldn't have the final say but it should go back to another referendum. What hypocrisy.


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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:10 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:56 am
Never heard of the Remain Party, are they are new political force ?


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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:07 pm 
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I wish

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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:36 pm 
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Sarcasm noted but does not change the hypocrisy nor the point that the aiding and abetting has only achieved the likelihood we will crash out instead of having a negotiated exit


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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:28 am 
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signalspast wrote:
Since then they have aided and abetted the European side and made it difficult for meaningful negotiations with them just being instrangent to any suggestions. So it looks like Europe won't agree to anything, unless we agree to what they want.


The EU isn't being intransigent - they are following the letter of the law. As Article 50 paragraph 3 states "All treaties shall cease to apply...."

The entire point of the two year period following invoking Article 50 was to get our house in order to prepare ourselves to leave the Union (out meaning out, apparently): that has always been the premise of the EU, while the UK Govt has fannied around thinking they can get a better deal with the EU by being out of it. IT WAS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Once we're out then we'll be in a position to start renegotiating access to all things like Euratom, etc etc ... although the EU is not obliged to do so.

We chose to leave (majority decision, apparently) now we're pointing fingers at the EU for us not getting the deal that we want. Pathetic, really.

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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:33 pm 
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signalspast wrote:
Well what a turn around. After the referendum the remain party argued that the government had to have the final say on the exit terms on us leaving. Well they won that arguement that the referendum was just the people saying they wanted to leave and not the terms. Since then they have aided and abetted the European side and made it difficult for meaningful negotiations with them just being instrangent to any suggestions. So it looks like Europe won't agree to anything, unless we agree to what they want. So if we do thanks to the remain party it has to go back to parliament, yes the out side will reject it and back it goes to negotiations and we bounce out. This is the good part though the remain party realising this now think that parliament shouldn't have the final say but it should go back to another referendum. What hypocrisy.

Who, exactly, has been “aiding and abetting” and how exactly? …… Please do tell…… Has Nick Clegg been dressing up as the Tea Lady again to snoop on cabinet discussions then reporting back to Barnier? I don’t know why he bothers though – if the EU had a direct line to all cabinet discussions they’d have no more idea than the rest of us what the government actually wants.

To clarify…….. After the referendum the government seemed to think it had been given the right to completely by-pass all meaningful Parliamentary scrutiny. Theresa May and her three merry men (two of whom have now gone off in a huff as the debacle has unfolded) - they were going to take powers into their own hands not seen since Henry VIII’s time. THIS was illegal and thankfully our independent judiciary (the “enemies of the people” according to the Daily Mail) ruled against them so they were forced to have parliamentary approval according to due process.

Now it turns out that getting a deal with the EU is not “the simplest thing in the world” as Liam Fox (the remaining merry man) had claimed it would be – it is every bit as hideously complex as anyone with even the most superficial understanding had said it would be all along. In fact, for the last two years almost nothing has been negotiated with the EU at all – because WE don’t know what WE want. Brexit is, and always has been, nothing but a slogan to describe a menu full of self-contradictory, empty promises from which its supporters all chose their own individual set of a la carte preferences. The fundamental problem is only one set can be ordered and, worse, none make much sense and none are actually on offer. So the Brexiteers are now all fighting like rats in a sack.

To make it clear. The ‘Remain Party’ (which I assume you mean the millions of people who said this would happen and all those pesky ‘experts’ that Michael Gove told us to ignore) - they most certainly DO believe Parliament should have scrutiny over every step of the process. They ALSO think that another meaningful referendum should be held when we all know what a sorry mess the ‘Leave’ box on the previous ballot actually meant.

So – maybe you missed a question mark off and actually meant “What Hypocrisy ?”

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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:54 am 
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The government are currently in negotiations with Europe to obtain the best exit terms that they are able. Do you think that the constant campaign has helped these negotiations. No it will be having the opposite affect, so yes you are aiding and abetting Europe.
Now I will use your words. Bypass all meaningful parliamentary scrutiny. I personally could see logic in this arguement but considered it could cause problems. In doing this though you have created an Achilles heel, so you change your mind about the government deciding and now want a referendum for the people to decide. Now hold on isn't that going back to square one under your thinking the government should have the final say not the people. Yes it's hypocrisy.


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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Europe are following the letter of the law, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing because as a consequence we will crash out which will be bad for both sides.
Yes negotiations could have been undertaken better ( for both sides). I will take one example of problems. Ireland. So we crash out but continue allowing produce into the country as before the crash out whilst we put systems into place to collect the taxes that will now be due. Now Europe who say xyz has to be in place has got the problems of imports and border controls. They will be creating the hard border. That is they type of thing why I say they are being instrangent because being dogmatic they are creating problems for themselves. So no it's not pathetic, the blame is on both sides of we just crash out.


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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Yeah it's a real shame that nobody told May, Gove and Johnson that Ireland was there! :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:37 pm 
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It's not just Ireland its all ports if we continue allowing produce in till we have systems in place to collect the taxes due it's Europe's problem what they do. They might just continue as before but I don't think so.


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