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An English Mentality Issue

Mar 14, 2009
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Tonight, I still cant get my head around the vast differences between the 1st half display and what came after this.

What we hear is this is a brave new, young England team. Yet from the moment the second half started why did this brave new football go out the window, and why did we start hoofing it at times to nobody upfield? We seem to just panic all of a sudden. What happened to the positive football? We just went back to being petrified and kept giving the ball away.

It doesn't matter if English footballers are young or old. We don't know how to deal with game management. Whether that is seeing a game out after taking the lead, killing the tempo and strangling the opposition or just having the nerve to keep making passes forwards instead of time after time going back to the goal keeper.

Against Denmark and Russia, Croatia had a lot less possession apparently than they did tonight. They play England and suddenly we make their team make pass after pass and can dominate us. Where was the press that we supposedly are meant to do? Our back 3, turned into a back 5.

Southgate has conducted himself brilliantly. Managed the team in a very professional way. Yet tonight highlighted tactical things he never seem to pick up in the game. People say this is the start of something but tonight he just watched and made like for like replacements and never once changed the system we played. I mean he could of tried and give Henderson some help, because Del Alli and Lingard couldnt really do this. Maybe pull Sterling (and then Rashford when he came on a sub) to a wide postion to stop the their full backs getting forward.

How can we look more tired than a team who played 120mins and went through the pressure of penalties twice in the last two rounds? How did that England team go from looking so fresh and fit to actually struggling to keep up with a team who made it look like England had been playing extra time against the Swedish.

I'm starting to think that its all in the head as to why we never can win these tournaments because we just dont seem capable of getting over the line. Doesn't matter it was 28 years ago or tonight. Doesn't matter that its against the Germans or the Croatians. We just don't have the mental fortitude to be the best national side in the world. You look at Neymar. You may not like him, but in 2016 Brazil and Neymar faced the biggest challenge for their country by winning the Olympic Gold that had eluded their country. This was after the disaster of the 2014 World Cup in their own backyard too. Yet despite all that pressure he went on to help them win that tournament. And that type of mental strength we haven't had for decades.

Of course you can still be proud of an achievement in a tournament where none of us expected to go deep into the knockout stages, but I do think expectations were so low that after losing to Iceland two years ago that wins against Tunsia, Panama, Columbia and Sweden meant we might of overagerated them some as to how good they actually were. These were all games that we were the favourites in and we were expected to go on and win them.

With question marks about Southgate's tactical ability within games unanswered and FA unable to do nothing as the pool of English players playing first team football within our own domestic top flight diminishes at significant rates I am fearing this may have been our best chance for years/or maybe in our lifetime.
 
Jan 20, 2004
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You might be right about the mentality issue and we may never have an easier path through a world cup tournament again, but I think Southgate did a fantastic job with the players he had available. Our mid field were never going to match Croatias mid field. No disrespect but Henderson, Dier, Linguard even Ali might be good Premiership players but not world class.
 
Jul 12, 2016
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On their showing last night are Young and Henderson really the best England players available? At times the play reminded me of Argyle! Played well for 45 minutes, persisted with the same tactics and resorted to hoof ball if all else failed.
 

Voice of Reason

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Everybody laughs when I said I would have taken Andy Carroll - last night proved that not to be so stupid. Wellbeck played how much 15/20 minutes all tournament - yet as soon as we are behind and sides defend we offer nothing but a hoof upfield - it's that is the best plan b we have at least have someone available he is suited to it.

Southgate is a really nice and decent chap. But is diabolical that the richest football association in the world selected someone so naive and inexperienced. After Sams fake sheikh fall out they didn't look for the best canidate the looked for the safest yes man. As they did with Maclaren and Woy. Nothing against Gareth as he has given his all but if it were a business and you were the best payer in your sector you would expect to employ the best person money can buy for the top job - all for moments like last night.
 

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✨Pasoti Donor✨
Oct 9, 2003
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Don't believe it was anything to do with mentality. Unfortunately, despite all the other excellent qualities, I think it was Southgate and co. who failed to act as our midfield was rdiculously stretched. Croatia came out with a game plan to push on down the flanks and stop our wing-backs from advancing. 3 in midfield - especially that 3 - would never be good enough defensively. Personally, I think we should have gone to 4-4-1-1 early in the second-half but the new world system seemed to be almost a dogma in the end, and eventually our undoing.
 
Mar 8, 2011
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Voice_of_Reason":3eqkgp7z said:
Everybody laughs when I said I would have taken Andy Carroll - last night proved that not to be so stupid. Wellbeck played how much 15/20 minutes all tournament - yet as soon as we are behind and sides defend we offer nothing but a hoof upfield - it's that is the best plan b we have at least have someone available he is suited to it.

Southgate is a really nice and decent chap. But is diabolical that the richest football association in the world selected someone so naive and inexperienced. After Sams fake sheikh fall out they didn't look for the best canidate the looked for the safest yes man. As they did with Maclaren and Woy. Nothing against Gareth as he has given his all but if it were a business and you were the best payer in your sector you would expect to employ the best person money can buy for the top job - all for moments like last night.
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say there (especially the Andy Carroll bit) but to whom and what is Southgate saying yes to?
 

Voice of Reason

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After Sam's episode, the FA will have wanted someone who is media friendly, nice, approachable and absolutely the lowest risk you could find. Told when and where the team will meet and train. It maybe taking it a bit far but i found it "iffy" that the players that were overlooked Shelvey, Wilshire, Carroll etc all could be labelled as bad boys.

The FA will be chuffed with the outcome, no controversy, a likeable manager, great PR etc etc - but ultimately we probably wasted the best opportunity we'll have in a generation to win a major tournament, because our coaching staff were out thought by a coaching team earning one tenth of ours. If you are the biggest bank in the world financially, you employ the best bank manager money can buy, we didn't - we choose the cheapest and nicest option.

Again thats nothing against Gareth himself, he has been a credit, but the people at the very top who will now be patting themselves on the back for a job well done, should be thinking "if only we were stronger"
 
Jan 4, 2005
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Voice_of_Reason":219v96lc said:
After Sam's episode, the FA will have wanted someone who is media friendly, nice, approachable and absolutely the lowest risk you could find. Told when and where the team will meet and train. It maybe taking it a bit far but i found it "iffy" that the players that were overlooked Shelvey, Wilshire, Carroll etc all could be labelled as bad boys.

The FA will be chuffed with the outcome, no controversy, a likeable manager, great PR etc etc - but ultimately we probably wasted the best opportunity we'll have in a generation to win a major tournament, because our coaching staff were out thought by a coaching team earning one tenth of ours. If you are the biggest bank in the world financially, you employ the best bank manager money can buy, we didn't - we choose the cheapest and nicest option.

Again thats nothing against Gareth himself, he has been a credit, but the people at the very top who will now be patting themselves on the back for a job well done, should be thinking "if only we were stronger"

I agree with all that. The galling point is that we had clear chances to win that game, which we fluffed. So easily we could have been expecting the Final. Nevertheless, Southgate will have put himself in the Venables/Robson class.
 

Super horns

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Jul 26, 2008
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Steve.PAFC2012":2pncsidm said:
Voice_of_Reason":2pncsidm said:
Everybody laughs when I said I would have taken Andy Carroll - last night proved that not to be so stupid. Wellbeck played how much 15/20 minutes all tournament - yet as soon as we are behind and sides defend we offer nothing but a hoof upfield - it's that is the best plan b we have at least have someone available he is suited to it.

Southgate is a really nice and decent chap. But is diabolical that the richest football association in the world selected someone so naive and inexperienced. After Sams fake sheikh fall out they didn't look for the best canidate the looked for the safest yes man. As they did with Maclaren and Woy. Nothing against Gareth as he has given his all but if it were a business and you were the best payer in your sector you would expect to employ the best person money can buy for the top job - all for moments like last night.
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say there (especially the Andy Carroll bit) but to whom and what is Southgate saying yes to?

I think Carroll is injured but we certainly missed somebody who could hold the ball up or win a header.

Also seemed to have no pace which was strange as its there in that team but Ali and Rahsford did very little.

Inexperience told from the bench and on the pitch.

Modric has suggested we expected his guys to get tired and they played on it.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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374
I get the OP’s point in general but I don’t think mentality was the issue last night. We lost to a team with a fair bit more quality. Modric, Rakitic, Mandzukic are the level of players we are missing. The hope is that the work the FA has been doing focussing on the grassroots and the good performance of the National younger age teams will bear fruit.

Needed the second goal in the first half, it’s rare you dominate at that level for the full 90, but no complaints. We did well in the tournament as a whole. We need this to be like 2006 was for Germany, something to build on and the start of a great period, and not a one-off like it has been for England in the past.
 
May 22, 2006
2,712
1,003
There is a English Mentality Issue but it is more with press fueled public, rather than the team.

I was at the England game when England qualified. The biggest cheer of the night came when one of the numerous paper aeroplanes being thrown made it to the centre circle. After a dull game, Harry Kane scored in injury time to confirm qualification. England were a poor time, with many limititations. Public expectations were very low.

Move forward a couple of months. Against Tunisia, England should have been four or five up at half time but lacked quality to convert chances. Again Harry Kane scored an injury time goal, to save blushes and also to avoid a whole load of criticism.

England played well against a poor Panama and the Belgium game was irrelevant, other than a defeat giving England a much easier draw.

England produced a mix bag against Colombia, missing their one world class player. Colombia resorted to intimidating tactics but this was a World Cup with referees seemingly desperate not to use red or yellow cards. Beckham wouldn't have been sent off in 2018. Even so, the game went to penalties and the players showed a great mentality by taking mainly good spot kicks. Presumably practising penalties and the use of the sports psychologist had improved the English Mentatlity.

Having scrambled a win against Colombia, England produced a good performance against Sweden. Sweden didn't perform on the day and are hard to judge. They failed to automatically qualify, nearly beat Germany but didn't, and beat an already qualified Mexico. A good result for England but not clear how good. Back in England, the public have gone mad. Newspaper headlines are full of heroism and nobody can not say the word's 'It's coming home.' The response is way over the top and match day paper headlines are ' England Expects' and 'Do your duty'. As usuual, newspapers forget that there purpose is to report events and believe that they are in business to conduct public opinion. Surely the headlines and the insanity at home gets through to the players through social media and must start to affect them.

England played well in the first half against Croatia and could have put the game to bed. Maybe at half time they were told that they were only 45 mins from a World Cup Final and they froze. Maybe the weight of expectation from the press and public finally got to them. Maybe Croatia simply upped their game. They certainly dictated the second half. England lost all width and Croatia deserved to win.

With a good draw, the England players certainly over achieved from original expectations. Pickford, Trippier and Maguire all emerge with enhanced reputations. It will be interesting to see if any of the England players make the team of the tournament. The skill and flair on show in the Belgium - France semi final was simply way ahead of the England game. Only Modric could be described as world class from that game but Croatia have others who are not far behind.

The England players performed well and hopefully will improve with age. Their progression to the semi final was partly due to managing to avoid the top teams, who knocked eachother out. It's good that England clearly performed better than Germany, and possibly Spain. We still need to vastly improve to be regular semi final contenders but at least there are signs of progress. Hopefully this is a reality check for the public and press. It's a shame that the English mentality seems only to consider the team as heroes or zeroes, without ever having a less extreme opinion, as such polarised views cannot help the team.
 

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pastiesforlife":19jfcug9 said:
There is a English Mentality Issue but it is more with press fueled public, rather than the team.

I was at the England game when England qualified. The biggest cheer of the night came when one of the numerous paper aeroplanes being thrown made it to the centre circle. After a dull game, Harry Kane scored in injury time to confirm qualification. England were a poor time, with many limititations. Public expectations were very low.

Move forward a couple of months. Against Tunisia, England should have been four or five up at half time but lacked quality to convert chances. Again Harry Kane scored an injury time goal, to save blushes and also to avoid a whole load of criticism.

England played well against a poor Panama and the Belgium game was irrelevant, other than a defeat giving England a much easier draw.

England produced a mix bag against Colombia, missing their one world class player. Colombia resorted to intimidating tactics but this was a World Cup with referees seemingly desperate not to use red or yellow cards. Beckham wouldn't have been sent off in 2018. Even so, the game went to penalties and the players showed a great mentality by taking mainly good spot kicks. Presumably practising penalties and the use of the sports psychologist had improved the English Mentatlity.

Having scrambled a win against Colombia, England produced a good performance against Sweden. Sweden didn't perform on the day and are hard to judge. They failed to automatically qualify, nearly beat Germany but didn't, and beat an already qualified Mexico. A good result for England but not clear how good. Back in England, the public have gone mad. Newspaper headlines are full of heroism and nobody can not say the word's 'It's coming home.' The response is way over the top and match day paper headlines are ' England Expects' and 'Do your duty'. As usuual, newspapers forget that there purpose is to report events and believe that they are in business to conduct public opinion. Surely the headlines and the insanity at home gets through to the players through social media and must start to affect them.

England played well in the first half against Croatia and could have put the game to bed. Maybe at half time they were told that they were only 45 mins from a World Cup Final and they froze. Maybe the weight of expectation from the press and public finally got to them. Maybe Croatia simply upped their game. They certainly dictated the second half. England lost all width and Croatia deserved to win.

With a good draw, the England players certainly over achieved from original expectations. Pickford, Trippier and Maguire all emerge with enhanced reputations. It will be interesting to see if any of the England players make the team of the tournament. The skill and flair on show in the Belgium - France semi final was simply way ahead of the England game. Only Modric could be described as world class from that game but Croatia have others who are not far behind.

The England players performed well and hopefully will improve with age. Their progression to the semi final was partly due to managing to avoid the top teams, who knocked eachother out. It's good that England clearly performed better than Germany, and possibly Spain. We still need to vastly improve to be regular semi final contenders but at least there are signs of progress. Hopefully this is a reality check for the public and press. It's a shame that the English mentality seems only to consider the team as heroes or zeroes, without ever having a less extreme opinion, as such polarised views cannot help the team.

A good post.
You mention the three players with enhanced reputations while some like Henderson, Young, Walker, Alli and Sterling stood still in terms of performance. They didn't step up.

Stones was good in the opposition box but his Achilles heel is losing concentration at critical times when defending and so it proved against Croatia.

I think Vardy and Rashford actually went backwards in this tournament and didn't enhance their reputation.

That said, the collective as a team have really improved and exceeded all expectations.
We just lacked that crucial central midfielder who could control the game.
 
Sep 19, 2015
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The issue we have with the "English Mentality" is supporters not being able to admit that on this occasion, we were outclassed by a better opponent. Some of the criticism of both Southgate and the players is border line embarrassing on this post.

We went into the tournament with very, very little expectation and we have left having equalled our second best finish EVER. Yeah, Southgate and the players may have made a few mistakes along the way but to call Southgate a Yes man is utter poo. The bloke has changed the complete culture of the English National team to which they are both respected by the public and the media alike.

Croatia changed tact at half time, pushed 15 yards higher up the pitch and pressed our centre halfs to the point where we started hitting hopeful long balls. In hindsight, Southgate may have brought an extra man on in the middle to give a second option other than Henderson but he didn't. He stuck with the tactics which saw his side excel.

Hopefully this is the start of something positive and new. I have every confidence that with Southgate in control. England will become a respectful footballing nation once again.
 

up the line

🚑 Steve Hooper
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Mar 7, 2010
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There is no English Mentality issue.

There is an England Experience issue.

The squad had very in the way of personnel with real big, later stage, tournament.
Similarly, notably the (slight) error for the winning goal was that of a player (Stones), who is a bit part player for his domestic team.
This has been picked up on another thread, but England don't just have to play against another XI, they have to struggle against a domestic league that provides scant opportunity for young English players to cut their teeth in high-level football. A number of last night's players had spent time out on loan at lower league teams whilst their parent clubs employ an import in their position. Some of them have had arduous pathways back into top flight football after being previously discarded. The positive is that people from around the nation identified with the players more, the negative is that they are several stages behind their opponents who learn their trade in league (most obviously our own) and European competition against the best.
The 90s and the advent of Sky, pumping their glamorous product into houses across the country almost incessantly reduced the need to wait 4 years for a chance of football glory. It means legions of armchair supporters who can watch their 'adopted' team almost continually without every having to brave Merseyside or Moss Side. They can bask in the neon glory of their superstars on weekly basis - who needs England every 4 years when you can watch the Gooners put 4 past Stoke or Swansea or West Brom? These glory-hunters (there is no other term) fund Sky, who fund the Premier league teams and that money has attracted the wealthiest of the wealthy to further bask in their own glory and further expand the already bloated transfer kitties of the top tier.
And because their 'consumers' demand to see their team sweep up all silverware in their wake so that they have bragging rights at the local these clubs are under pressure to fill their team photos with the very best, ready made, winners. This means a constant European merry-go round of players. And whilst this includes the brightest domestic prospects being hoovered up by the top clubs, unless Joe Bloggs from Bridlington makes an instant, heroic success in his 3 minute Carabo Cup outing, he'll be farmed out top the likes of Plymouth Argyle to play against the trundling meathead journeymen hoofers of the lower divisions.
Take The Guardian's transfer round-up today: https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... dy-chelsea - expect to see the potential future England players phased out even more this season.
I'd bet a hefty wedge that the reaction from plastics around the country when two 'non-prem' players scored against England last night was an immediate 'when are my adopted team bidding for him?!'